As If The NRA Wasn't....

[Tanzer]

As if it wasn't under enough scrutiny from gun owners, listen to this;
I'm going to take a course to be an instructor in a few weeks. My notification letter stated; Do not bring any firearms to the first session. I called the instructor, stating that I had a CWP, and almost always carry. I asked if it was an actual rule, or if they were just telling people not to bother. The statement I got was; Quote: "We've had trouble over the years with you people pulling out your weapons to show them. People end up getting shot". YOU PEOPLE???
Concealed carry is concealed. I don't talk about it, personally. My question is, however; Do they stand up for owner's rights? Do they think I'm a cowboy who will come in shooting into the air??? I'm not looking for advice, I'll handle it, but has anyone else had this sort of thing happen?

[Bill of Rights]

In fairness, that's not the NRA, that's one instructor. I agree that when he's wearing that "hat", he represents them.
It reminds me of the people who want to make exceptions to the 2A. No, I'm not in favor of putting a .45 where an 18 month old can get it, and no, I'm not in favor of opening the jail cells up and handing one to everyone there, but the 2A does not have any restrictions upon doing so. I don't think we need laws defining at what age someone is allowed by anyone other than his or her parents to be armed. I don't think that once someone has completed his or her jail term or other court-imposed punishment, there should be any restriction on that person being able to defend him- or herself. I would not oppose moving up a "level" or even two levels of punishment for such people committing crimes of violence, however: Class C felony becomes a class A, class B can become a capital offense, etc.

Back to your topic, and my apologies for the hijack, it sounds to me like your instructor needs some education. Tell the students at the outset: If you're carrying legally, your weapon stays in it's holster unless it's needed or I tell you otherwise. Then show people how to safely show off their handgun, if they choose to do so.

Bottom line, I'd say as you did, concealed means concealed, and unless there's some law defining otherwise, the instructor can go suck a rock. 8)

Blessings,
B

[Outlaw]

That instructor sounded as if he was stereotyping CCW guys. Sorta rude, but I can understand where he's coming from. He's more than likely speaking from experience. I had a guy the other day talking about applying for CCW and how he was gonna go out and save the world once he got it. Sounds sorta like the airhead your instructor was referring to. Bottom line; some people just shouldn't conceal carry or carry at all. The woods is full of 'em. Personally if I didn't like the instructors attitude, I would go somewhere else. And if I were going into an instruction scenario I would carry my weapons in a bag and not concealed. No need for it there. But that's just me....

[DAN]

I find it common for instructors to not have new students bring personal firearms to the classroom. The first session of instructor training is all classroom, book stuff. Kinda a size up. I think once you meet the instructor face to face they might have a different line.

I ask my students Not to bring personal firearms to the classroom. If it is on the range then std protocol must be inforced. A CCW holder is exempt until they betray that trust.

From my experience just because someone is in the military or has a ccw permit does not mean the are safe!

DAN

[Tanzer]

In fairness, that's not the NRA, that's one instructor
Probably so.
I find it common for instructors to not have new students bring personal firearms to the classroom.
Keep in mind, I'm no new student. I've probably got more training behind me than (she by the way) has. I've just finally capitulated to requests from my club to get officiated so I can do range tests for new members etc. I figure I can do a class now and then to put some good out there. The test I took was; Thou shalt not load thyne lead ball until yon powder is tamped sufficiently, keep horn-shaped end pointed away from livestock, and keep finger off wick until flint is in place. I've had a CWP for years now. It just seems silly. Most of all, It's non of their beeswax. BTW, I plan on having it in a bag like outlaw noted.

[Jay]

Good points by all, but consider this..........

The instructor is responsible for the safety of all participants in the class. The instructor usually is unfamiliar with those in attendance. Not knowing me from straight up, how many of you would trust me in your class with a loaded concealed weapon?

Like Dan said...... possession of a CCW permit only tells me you're not illegally in possession of a firearm.... it does not tell me you're safe to be around when you're carrying a firearm.

[Bill of Rights]

I'm not an "official" instructor for anyone, but it seems to me that if I take on that responsibility, I use any possible chance to teach a better (or at least safer) way. I would tell any asking student first, "Thank you for asking!" then add, "If you bring it to class, please do not remove it from the holster unless either you're using it to defend yourself or I specifically instruct you to do so." I might even make up a written "pre-class" packet of info to send my students before class, but to tell people to be disarmed and helpless is not something that at this point in my own knowledge, I'm willing to do unless the risk cannot be lessened or removed in any way.

Just my two cents,

Blessings,
B

[Tanzer]

Like Dan said...... possession of a CCW permit only tells me you're not illegally in possession of a firearm.... it does not tell me you're safe to be around when you're carrying a firearm
Okay, but if all is done properly, haven't you already qualified as safe by the powers that be?
This brings up a wider topic; The legality of "No Firearms" signs. Let's say Joe's Ice Cream Emporium and Go-Kart track puts up a "No Guns" sign. Now, can you legally carry at Joe's? In most cases I've heard of, Joe can give you the boot, but you are not breaking the law. BTW, this does not hold true at state/federal buildings, but I don't believe that Wally World can do anything more than ask you to leave.

[Jay]

Okay, but if all is done properly, haven't you already qualified as safe by the powers that be?

Not in my opinion. I know of several folks locally that have a permit, and I shudder to think about their particular safety habits...... or lack thereof. Firearm safety cannot be proven, or automatically accepted by a permit, or gun club, or State/Federal agency. Firearm safety must be practiced by each of us, and should be proven to every other shooter I/we encounter.

"sorry about that" is not acceptable. (to me)

Some states actually legislate the design of "no firearms" signs. I'm not up to speed on which ones, but I've heard that some places can charge you with illegal entry or some such, if you carry in defiance of a legally configured posting.

[Bill of Rights]

Some states actually legislate the design of "no firearms" signs. I'm not up to speed on which ones, but I've heard that some places can charge you with illegal entry or some such, if you carry in defiance of a legally configured posting.

I know that Texas has the 30.06 signs that make merely entering any privately-owned building with such a sign on it a crime, if one is armed and not a sworn LEO. I am not up on whether violating 30.06 is a misdemeanor or a felony. I much prefer the laws of states that have no such silly restrictions.

Blessings,
B

[Tanzer]

Quote:
Okay, but if all is done properly, haven't you already qualified as safe by the powers that be?

Not in my opinion. I know of several folks locally that have a permit, and I shudder to think about their particular safety habits...... or lack thereof. Firearm safety cannot be proven, or automatically accepted by a permit, or gun club, or State/Federal agency. Firearm safety must be practiced by each of us, and should be proven to every other shooter I/we encounter.
Jay,
Keep in mind the vast differences in local flavor between our states. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand your state is;
Shall issue w/ auto recognition for out of state, Castle Doctrine accepted, Firearm & even "assault" weapons unrestricted, and even machine gun ownership is only restricted by relevant federal stats. Your permits allow both open and concealed carry. You can even apply for a lifetime carry. That's Indiana law in 2007 as I read them at least.
I don't know how "free" you consider yourself, but compared to RI, you've found utopea. If you have a RI permit, you've been through a lot. Other RI folks know this. The average Joe cannot obtain this status.

[Jay]

Tanzer,

Sir, you're absolutely correct on all counts. I mean no disrespect towards anyone, but the relative utopia we have here, also allows some less-than-adequate performance of safety rules, by a very few individuals. I'm not in favor of ANY more gun laws, but watching some folks, I almost wish a training class was required for a permit. Because training is NOT required for a permit, I mandate that for those taking any of my classes, that they may bring their own firearms, but those firearms stay in the owners' vehicles until it's time to go to the range. I also reserve the right to inspect any firearm for safety issues that will be fired in close proximity to other students. The vast majority of those I teach are new shooters, so long time permit holders won't have to be concerned with me not allowing CCW in the classroom until I'm satisfied with their performance. I do have a safety obligation to those I teach, and I try my best to fulfill it.

Regards, Jay

[VegasGeorge]

Well, I can understand why anyone would be nervous about being in a room full of strangers in a situation that might encourage them to pull their guns out and show them off. Ordinarily, I could care less if everyone in the room is armed, in fact I like the idea. But, being in a situation where the guns come out is different.

When I'm shooting with friends, or at the range among strangers, I'm always watchful of how they're handling their weapons. Negligent discharges are just too common to be discounted. A room full of strangers showing off their guns would be too hard to keep an eye on. I wouldn't feel safe.

Just recently I went to a party. I was the new guy, and the others knew each other from past events. There were about 15 people there. It is a car club, but many of the members are shooters, too. Later in the evening, the discussion turned to shooting, and guns came out and were being passed around to be examined. To their credit, the weapons were handled safely. From my seated position I could see them all. Each weapon was first unloaded, and the slide locked back. Magazines were out. I didn't see any of the muzzles pointed toward anyone at any time. And, fingers were scrupulously kept off the triggers. I was very alert, and frankly nervous about what was happening. But, all was well.

That is just the sort of situation that results in someone getting shot. The fact that all these people knew and observed safe gun handling practices is unusual. I only stayed there because I could clearly see what was happening. I wouldn't have stayed in a room with people doing that behind me.

[Bill of Rights]

Just recently I went to a party. I was the new guy, and the others knew each other from past events. There were about 15 people there. It is a car club, but many of the members are shooters, too. Later in the evening, the discussion turned to shooting, and guns came out and were being passed around to be examined. To their credit, the weapons were handled safely. From my seated position I could see them all. Each weapon was first unloaded, and the slide locked back. Magazines were out. I didn't see any of the muzzles pointed toward anyone at any time. And, fingers were scrupulously kept off the triggers. I was very alert, and frankly nervous about what was happening. But, all was well.

Wow, what a GREAT testimony to what happens when people who look on their personal decision to carry these self-defense tools as the responsibility it is and take the tools, the responsibility, and themselves seriously! These guys sound like true professionals-and professionalism is an attitude, not a vocational attribute, a la "I'm th' only one in this room, that I know of, professional enough to handle this Glo*BANG!*"

It also sounds like what I would expect to find among CCWers. While in some cases, I know I'd be disappointed, this experience would be my expectation of the rule rather than the exception.

Sounds like you pick good company, George. Good job.

Blessings,
B

[Tanzer]

Jay,
No problem! I know what you're saying. I was just pointing out that guns are rare enough around here that if you see one and you're not in the process of being robbed, It must be a good guy with some training. :D

[Jay]

if you see one and you're not in the process of being robbed, It must be a good guy with some training.

I hope that continues to hold true for you. :wink:

[Tanzer]

Quote:
if you see one and you're not in the process of being robbed, It must be a good guy with some training. Nah, it was basically joking, but you get the idea. I definately see the downside you point out, but still think we're too restrictive.
The thing that got me was when she said; "YOU PEOPLE". That's something you usually only say to an adversary, like a southern baptist talking to a hippie. I could say "you people" to an anti, but not another gun owner.

[rangemaster_tx]

I know that Texas has the 30.06 signs that make merely entering any privately-owned building with such a sign on it a crime, if one is armed and not a sworn LEO. I am not up on whether violating 30.06 is a misdemeanor or a felony. I much prefer the laws of states that have no such silly restrictions.

All my years of CC, very seldom have I ran to the 30.06 sign, besides the sign has to be constructe in such a way that it is in English and Spanish, each letter has to be at least 1" in size on contrasting background. 30.06 law also covers a "verbal request", which requires you to leave the area in question or face a Class A misdemeanor for trespass. The sign we see most in Texas is the "46.03" law, "places weapons prohibited", such as a hospital or bar (if the business derives 51% or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption. I have no problem leaving my weapon in the car in places like that. Also in Texas if you drink, dont carry...or you go to jail, dont have to be drunk, just drinking.

[rangemaster_tx]

OPPPSSSS.... sorry bout that Bill of rights... I managed to screw up my first forum post and not take you out of "quote"... will this be a 10 yard or 15 yarder...sorry bout that again... will do better in the future...

[Bill of Rights]

No problem. Easily fixed. All better now. :)

Thanks for the info, too.

Blessings,
B

[Tanzer]

Well, I gotta "man up" here and admit I was wrong. The class was indeed run by a really good instructor & considering the size (before weeding out those who wouldn't make the cut) I suppose I can see why she didn't want weapons on day one. To clarify, it was just a request. My only criticism is that she's a better lobbyist than teacher. She's all for CWP, but she doesn't articulate all that well. This is probably because she's a state legislator - one of three pro gunners in a house full of gun grabbers, so I guess she's just learned to be blunt.
All turned out well. I'm now certified to teach everything from how to touch a gun for the first time all the way to CWP qualification, including Refuse to be a Victim, range officer and Eddy Eagle (I aint dressin' up in no bird suit). To clarify, it's in the mail.
So Mods, I need some practice time assisting before I can run a class, but I can get contact info for folks who need help in my area (RI). I met a few people with some good state house connections. No promises, except that I'll try to help. The AG is still the AG, and nobody any better is looking at his job. PM me with any questions & as I get more into it, I'll try to help.