gunman opens fire on illinois campus

[taking back sunday]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23171567?GT1=10856

a gunman opened fire at northern Illinois university killing 6 and injuring 16 at 3pm this afternoon. keep the students and their families in your prayers.

[45Fan]

Yes, that is horrible. I cant imagine getting word like that about having a child in that class.

We need more signs.... :roll:

[Bill of Rights]

They have not yet released the name, but anyone want to bet that this sorry excuse for human flesh did not hold a CCW from any state? Anyone want to bet what would have happened had it not been in "right denied" Illinois, or if someone like junglebob had been there doing the "fanny pack transport" thing?

If, God forbid, I had a family member in a situation like this, injured or killed when they could have been armed and protected, every single one of my legislators who voted against concealed carry legislation would be seeing me across a courtroom for both civil and criminal charges if I had to sell my house and live in a homeless shelter to make it happen.

(Amendment 2)
"A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

(Amendment 9)
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

(Amendment 10)
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

(US Congress' Oath of Office)
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God."

(IN Oath of Office)
"As required by Article 15, Section 4 of the Constitution of the State of Indiana, and by Indiana Code 5-4-1-1, I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully discharge the duties of the office of
__________________________________________________ ______
(insert name of elected office, including circuit or county)
and will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Indiana to the best of my abilities, so help me God.
______________________________
Signature"

The above words, beginning with Amendment 2, all have meaning, and must be respected as such. When your child doesn't show the proper respect to others, he or she should be taught that respect, preferably by example and verbal correction where possible, but not discounting a meeting with the "board of education" at the "seat" of the problem. Politicians have too long ignored their responsibilities and too long been allowed to disrespect the people who elect (hire) them and whom they are supposed to serve. A pity that we can't take these so-called "public servants" to that woodshed, but are limited only to voting them out of office, but I think it's high time we did exactly that. Personally, I want to see our ballots changed to add a single line at the bottom of every one:
None of the above are acceptable.
and I want a paper trail so we can verify that votes were cast.

Our rights are too important to ignore and their powers are supposed to be too limited for us to allow them to continue expanding.

Blessings,
B

[Bill of Rights]

Update: They did release the name while I was typing the above. Still don't know if he had a CCW from anywhere. I still bet "no".

Interestingly, there are several articles referenced in the text of the MSNBC story, one of which is "10 myths about school shootings"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15111438/

Of note:Myth No. 7. “If only we’d had a SWAT team or metal detectors.”

Despite prompt law enforcement responses, most shooting incidents were over well before a SWAT team could have arrived. Metal detectors have not deterred students who were committed to killing themselves and others.

Still, their primary advice is to encourage the kids to tell an adult when they hear things that they think might lead to school violence, though almost in the same breath, they say that criminal shooters often don't give any warning. Personally, I wonder if we're not screwing with their heads when we tell our kids to "tell" about things like this, but not to "tattle" about other things. Sure, to us, the difference is clear: It's "tattling" when it's trivial things that we don't really want to deal with, but it's "telling" when it's a real risk, but if we can't trust the kids to drive a car till they're 16 and then only after extensive, specialized instruction and practice and then in many places, not with only same-age passengers for some period of time after they're licensed, how can we trust them to know and recognize this difference?

Blessings,
B

[VegasGeorge]

Bill of Rights has brought up an interesting point, the idea of survivors suing these schools and lawmakers for leaving students, shoppers, etc. defenseless in situations like this.

The real power is in the money. If school systems, shopping malls, etc. see that they may have liability for denying CCW holders the right to carry their weapons, things might change. We can actually do this.

The first step is to flood the scene with information. We should have an organized campaign sending notices out to colleges and universities, shopping malls, and other typical "gun free zones" advising them of the facts. We should spell out to them why gun free zones don't work, and how citizens need to be able to protect themselves. And (now this is important) we should warn them specifically that they can be held liable for damages for deaths and serious injuries resulting from denying citizens the right and ability to defend themselves.

We should have attorneys ready to jump in and take the cases of injured and deceased victims. We would have records showing that the defendants were specifically warned in advance of their liability but did not change their gun ban policies.

If we did all this, and got even one case to a jury, it would shake the entire system up. Basically, the institutions are running scared. They're scared that if they allow guns, and something bad happens, they will be blamed for it. We know that is illogical, backwards thinking. We have to turn the tables on them. We have to make them more afraid of liability for having denied citizens the right to carry, than thy are of any liability for allowing guns to be carried in their institutions.

[Bill of Rights]

I know that Students for Concealed Carry on Campus is planning an "Empty Holster Week" in April, and that might be a good time to do it, George. Good thinking.

I was just watching the broadcast Katie Couric did tonight where mention was made that the murderer "bought two of his guns (a very short time, I missed how long) before the murders at a Champaign (IL) gun store". This means that he had a FOID card, which means that the IL State Police cleared him (actually, that he had no previous mental or criminal history), but you can bet the Brady bunch will announce from the rooftops that he was "given a permit to buy a gun" or some such rot.

The other thing I noticed was that a spokesman for NIU spoke of addressing the problem in terms of reviewing the concept of open campuses; I'm sure that raises the same red flags (complete with hammer and sickle!) for all of you that it does for me.

Also, on the lighter side of the news, I'm told (I've not checked it out because I've not stopped laughing yet) that Barack Obama now favors guns on college campuses, because that's the only thing that will stop one person with a gun is someone else who has one, too. While the sentiment is true, methinks Obama have long nose and speak with forked tongue.

It did make a good laugh, though.

Blessings,
B

[Clark]

Very funny for bringing that up - Do not trust him on that gun issue. He has stated that he wants to pick them up, and if that fails, he is supporting Ted Kennedy's bills to limit ammunition.

Watch and see......

This is a terrible tragedy and our prayers go out to the families of the victims.

Keep us posted on the empty holster demonstrations. We would like to keep everyone posted.

[liquibyte]

I'm starting to think that empty holster demonstrations aren't getting the point accross to these people. How about a little civil disobedience this time around? I say put something in those holsters and nullify the laws by jury. One or ten won't do it, but I'd bet if 1000 people show up armed that would make quite an impression and quite possibly start another trip to the supreme court for the ensuing civil rights violations.

[Clark]

There may be a time for civil disobedience, but it is not now. Using every means possible to talk and use our political systems is what makes this country the greatest single country on the planet.

Even though there are factions tearing us apart we need to take the high road and work through the system peacefully. It is not odd that if you took a cross section of the Concealed Carry Community, you would find that it was made up of stand up Americans that pay taxes and obey the laws. They are the ones that took the time to get the permits and follow the laws.

We can see what is happening to the gun laws over the last several years, and that is the increase of States passing the CCW laws and the increased reciprocity issues. People will only realize that Gun Free Zones Kill after it gets worse.

liquibyte, you bring up a great point - how do we get their attention. I think that through forums like our forum (Which is run by the greatest moderators on the net) , USACarry run by Luke McCoy, Carryconealed Magazine run by Tim and the California Gun owners where CA CCWInstructor particpates, and others is only a start. We can get their attention even more by voting with our dollars.

Voting with our dollars is not done enough in an organized fashion to be able to let folks know how much we as a shooting community can impact their dollars. Only when we impact their pocket book will they listen.

Thank you for your posts and opinions.

Again - our hearts and prayers go out to the shooting victims.

[VegasGeorge]

The empty holster campaign is good, but it could be better.

I think putting bright orange dummy guns in the holsters would be an improvement. Face it, lots of people don't even notice a gun in a holster, let alone an empty holster.

Then, I think every person participating in the empty holster demonstration should have at least one graphic photo of massacred victims. That's so he or she could show the photos and say, "if I had been there with my gun, this wouldn't have happened. Why do you want to stop me?"

And, I think every participant should have his or her CCW permit copied with a statement reciting the requiremts of the background check. That's so the participant could say, "This is who I am, why wouldn't you trust me to carry a gun?"

[Bill of Rights]

I could go with the bright orange to make an impact, but better, I think, to let it pass much as did what amounted to "Mexican Day Off" a year or so ago, when the entire Hispanic community closed their businesses and tried to show the impact on the economy from their absence from commerce- Very little, from my perspective. Society continued along it's merry way that day without them, and if not for news coverage, I'd not even have noticed the absence. That worked against them because they were trying to show what a huge impact they made by their absence. In our case, it would work in our favor, because having had a week of empty holsters on campus, few would even notice. To then make the point that "through this week, we wore holsters that people would see, and few people even noticed. If we were really armed, we'd be carrying concealed, in most cases, and even fewer would notice, but the extra layer of protection would still be there."

In addition, perhaps either the pictures or a T shirt could have the caption,
"Gun Bans: Protecting criminal acts like these for 40 years"
NIU, DeKalb, IL
Arvada, CO
WestRoads Mall, Omaha, NE
Virginia Tech
...

You get the idea. Please note that I did not include CO Springs, where Miss Assam stopped the killer quickly. That might be worked in there, too, along with Appalachian School of Law and Pearl High School, Pearl, MS, where criminal acts were stopped by John Q. Public. Designer's choice whether to include Trolley Square Mall, which was stopped by an off-duty police officer, out of his jurisdiction and violating mall policy by carrying.

Cogito, ergo porto.
Porto, ergo cogito!

Blessings,
B

[junglebob]

Bill of Rights, Someone asked about "fanny pack transport" on university campus and was told by someone on Illinoiscarry that firearms of anykind are prohibited on all Illinois state universities. So they are state sanctioned "victim zones". I also noticed an article today on the WGN radio website about the arrest of a fellow at Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville. He was carrying a taser, knife and 2 spring guns (similar to BB guns). The article said he had made some threats on his facebook page. Of course this incident has caused gun control advocates to call for more gun control and I read an article where Chicago area Representative Acevedo has called for legislation banning some pump shotguns. The same article mentioned Representative Aaaron Schock, sponsor of a concealed carry bill, saying this incident shows why Illinois needs concealed carry.

[Bill of Rights]

why am I not surprised, JB?

"We've got 750 gun bans on the books, but crime's still going up! What should we do?!"

"PASS ANOTHER GUN BAN, of course! They may violate 750 of them, but they won't violate 751!" :roll:

I wanna know how we go about passing a politician ban.

Blessings,
B

[VegasGeorge]

Part of what's happening here is the tendency to blame someone else for every problem. Shifting the blame also shifts the responsibility to do something about it. Here, a crazy with a gun kills a bunch of innocents, so who do they blame? Why the gun industry, the gun stores, the gun rights proponents, of course. Then they expect us to do something about the problem by not manufacturing, selling, or carrying our guns. They won't blame themselves, because that would mean that they would have the responsibility to do something about it. They would have to learn about self defense and how to use a sidearm. They won't do that. They want something for nothing, or at least that's how they view government regulation. It's all about the helpless, big government, cradle to grave, take no personal responsibility, and pass the buck attitude of socialists. It doesn't work. It doesn't get barns built, and it doesn't get children educated, and it doesn't keep our streets and schools safe. Instead of "A chicken in every pot," we should have a motto like "A gun in every pocket." That would make a lot more sense.

[Bill of Rights]

Well said, as usual. It's about personal responsibility, and I think that you probably hit it spot-on, George. Not only is it "if we acknowledge this, we have to do something about it", but also, "if we acknowledge that it's not the gun, it's the people, and specifically that certain people, specifically the people who have fractured families and little in the way of guidance growing up- no matter what their skin color, are the ones committing the crimes, they have to try to figure out a way to differentiate which people occupying which apartments in which buildings on which streets should have their rights taken away-as if it was within government's power to do so. Then, they need to acknowledge the fact that that's the wrong way around, and rather than attempting preventative justice, they need to respect the people who elect them, punish the guilty, and leave the innocent the hell alone.

Are those concepts so difficult to comprehend?

Blessings,
B

[VegasGeorge]

Bill, at the risk of making this sound like a mutual admiration society, let me say that you, too, are spot on right.

There are only two ways to stop these gun free zone massacres.

One, is to stop it while its happening. That is, to shoot the shooter, and the sooner the better. For that, we need armed citizens who will be there when needed.

Two, is to get to the problem children and problem adults and do something to prevent them from eventually going ballistic. For that, we need a massive reform in the education, medical, and legal communities.

Although both solutions are necessary, rational, and appropriate, neither one will be 100% We must do the best we can with number two, but we need number one in place as well.

[junglebob]

The empty holster campaign is good, but it could be better.

I think putting bright orange dummy guns in the holsters would be an improvement. Face it, lots of people don't even notice a gun in a holster, let alone an empty holster.

Then, I think every person participating in the empty holster demonstration should have at least one graphic photo of massacred victims. That's so he or she could show the photos and say, "if I had been there with my gun, this wouldn't have happened. Why do you want to stop me?"

And, I think every participant should have his or her CCW permit copied with a statement reciting the requiremts of the background check. That's so the participant could say, "This is who I am, why wouldn't you trust me to carry a gun?"
There was a Illinois college student in 2005 that carried an empty holster on a college campus. In October 2005 on Rock Valley College campus Shaun Kranish was wearing a covered holster containing no firearm. He approached school administrators to discuss his concern about school policy (guns banned on campus -- civilian disarmament zone) Shaun is a proponent of concealed carry, open carry and all forms of legal carry.

School officials, however, decided to conspire with campus police to arrest and falsely accuse Shaun of committing the crime of "disorderly conduct". Apparently wearing pro-gun attire respectfully and politely petitioning your government for grievences is disorderly conduct. They set out to "teach" Shaun a lesson. The charges were dismissed months later and Shauns confiscated property and clothing were returned 5 months later.

Shaun and his attorney, constitutional lawyer Walter Maksym from Chicago, have since filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against the school for violating his right to free speech and expression, conspiracy to violate those rights and more.

I haven't heard of an outcome to this lawsuit yet.

[Bill of Rights]

That will be an interesting one to follow, JB, especially considering that one of the Justices (Thomas, I think) has said that the right to petition for redress of grievance is absolutely sacrosanct and goes beyond any and all others in importance. The example given was that even if the petitioner is lying through his teeth and blatantly so, he has a right to and indeed MUST be heard (and I think he went on to specify that the claim must at least be investigated.)

Please, if you hear more, do post.

Thanks and

Blessings,
B