Should Students carry at Universities?

[Stubob]

This is a question that I think we all wonder about - Any ideas?



Here is one Student that is also a CCW instructor.

http://media.www.easternprogress.com/media/storage/paper419/news/2007/09/06/News/Guns-Friends.Of.Foes-2953274.shtml

Here is a quote from a paper in the UK.
One might contrast the Virginia Tech massacre with the assault on Virginia’s Appalachian Law School in 2002, where three lives were lost before a student fetched a pistol from his car and apprehended the gunman

[VegasGeorge]

This is a good article for two reasons. First, it sets out a reasonable argument for allowing CCW on campus. Second, it exposes the anti CCW on campus arguments for what they are; shallow, illogical, and wrong.

This is actually a good mental exercise for those who may not have spent much time considering the pros and cons of CCW. Look at the second half of this article, and take the opposing comments one by one. Write down, or at least verbalize what you see as being wrong with each of the opposing arguments. They run the gamut of anti gun nonsense thinking. If you do this, you will be prepared to answer just about any objection to CCW you may encounter.

[nodaywithout]

i like this Davis guy

[Genghis77]

I'll jump in here and say I am against students carrying guns in colleges. Simple reason, I find them too immature and reckless. OSU just has a case of a fraternity member shooting a homeless man. It turns out quite common for the fraternity members. The frat house was searched and more than 4 dozen weapons seized including a couple full auto AK-47's. The frat house had a gun vault for gun storage and that was the policy. The vault was empty and guns scattered throughout the home.

Nope! Got to shoot that one down. But I am in favor of armed teachers and other staff. That will give security without arming a bunch of yahoos.
Drinking alcohol has a 21 age limit. Might consider such before arming students.

[Bill of Rights]

Genghis, this unfortunately is a trap many seem to fall prey to: so-called "reasonable restrictions". You say you'd deny college students as a whole their fundamental and Constitutional rights, based on the actions of the few or even the many. I'm not much for gov't issued gun permits, because they who license a thing, tax it, and the power to tax is the power to destroy. The RIGHT to keep and bear arms is not supposed to be subject to government permission. Be that as it may, those who voluntarily subject themselves to the various steps of licensure/permitting have been proven over and over again to be the most law-abiding and peaceable members of society. Too, most places require that a CCW/LTC holder be 21, though some allow LTC at 18.

Those who carry on college campuses are the same ones who carry in society as a whole. If someone commits a crime, prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. If that means they've committed murder, I'd go so far as making it a capital offense, since the only thing that will stop a criminal from committing a crime he's determined to commit is either a cell or a coffin, but preventative law enforcement is not a workable option unless you're willing to sacrifice your rights. I don't know about you, but I'm not.

Blessings,
M

[nodaywithout]

I have to side with both of you....

Ganghis - i agree with you on the fact that there are some college students out there who are not mature enough to use firearms properly.

BUT (here is where i side with st m and nearly everyone on here) what you have not considered is that there are so many people out there that are well beyond college ages whom are nowhere near the maturity of most college aged students, and yet they can still ge a CCW.

In this same train of thought that if college aged students should not be allowed to ccw on campus, than why should anyone else (excluding law enforcement).

I know that there are some ways around it, in some places though. for example, in my high school (and this may have changed by now) you could have a firearm in your vehicle so long as it is taken appart, and placed in completely different sections of the car with the ammo locked up.

[VegasGeorge]

Immature and reckless college students? Geez, Genghis77, what college did you go to? :twisted:

Seriously, of course you're right. There are a lot of college students who are too immature and reckless to be trusted with the responsibility of CCW, or of driving a car, or of drinking alcohol, or of flying an airplane, or of rock climbing, or of .... (the list goes on). Of course, exactly the same thing can be said of young adults, middle aged adults, and, yes, even older adults. The sad truth is that a small percentage of all adults are too immature and reckless to be trusted with a gun. But guess what? They get one anyway. There is no "maturity" or "reckless" test given to license folks for any of life's ordinary hazardous activities. Any typical immature and reckless type can pull it together well enough to get the training, learn the material, and pass the test for just about any license. The only logical approach to guard against this maturity and recklessness threat is to increase the age requirement. There is at least some evidence that most people tend to become more mature and less reckless with age (Rednecks excluded, of course), and that fewer of the ones who don't , survive (Rednecks included, of course). So, altogether, we can say with some degree of certainty that the older people get, the smaller the percentage of immature and reckless survivors there are among them. So, then it becomes a numbers exercise. At what age will the percentage of immature and reckless members of the cohort fall to an acceptable level? Then, that's the age at which we should grant the license. When it comes to dependable safe gun handling, sound discretionary judgment, and a sober non-confrontational lifestyle, I would guess the threshold age to be about 35 years. By then, I would expect at least 80% of the immature and reckless types would have wised up, sobered up, or died.

So, I guess I've argued myself into an answer to this vexing problem. I would support issuing CCWs to all college students 35 years old, or older. Provided, of course, that they had a permission slip from their mommy.

[Bill of Rights]

...I would support issuing CCWs to all college students 35 years old, or older. Provided, of course, that they had a permission slip from their mommy.

*SNORK*

Blessings,
M

[Genghis77]

This is at the opposite end of the spectrum. A few years back, I bought a place in an over 55 community. Now that community definitely should have been a gun free zone. It was a gated community and according to police beyond their jurisdiction. The homeowners association president had a CCW as well as another person that was entry gate guard. I personally witnessed the homeowners association threaten a woman with his weapon and proceed to strike her in the face with it. The gate guard had this nasty habit of shooting birds in his yard as well as cats. Both were alcoholics and raced their cars through the place. The community had about 350 homes. Realizing the futility I quickly sold out at considerable loss.

My experience there as well as many seniors in RV parks has me thinking a mental competency test might be in order for both driver's license and gun ownership. There really are some places where I think guns are ill advised.

I will also mention that I have had two close up incidences of people pulling guns on me. One in college and putting a Colt 9mm auto into my ribs, the gun, not the bullet. Due to a bit of training on my part he found he was unable to fire and I disarmed him. The other case my one and only bad experience with a hitchhiker. A .38 revolver to my head. This time I was convincing that the fatal shot to my head would result in his own fatality. We came to a mutual agreement where he surrendered the gun and he departed my car while still in motion but moving slowly. I am probably a very abnormal person as I have never feared death. Truth is I would been far more fearful of being shot in a manner as to blow out my knee or something. Pretty sure either of those would have been fatal shots. And in either incident had I been carrying, it would have been useless. Both came out of the blue without a hint. And yes, I even look back and consider how crazy the actions might have been. BTW turned both seized weapons in to police. As I expected, both stolen.

I'll add another very personal reason why I dont want university students armed. When I returned from Viet Nam I got called baby killer and spit at and all the rest. I am against arming a bunch of pacifists too. Campuses have too much alcohol and drug use. I have never in my life been in posession of a gun while drinking and always 8 hours after a single beer before driving. I have been in a few bars carrying but it was for the great cheeseburgers. I am so against mixing alcohol with guns or driving. While drunk driving limit is .08 in every state, in at least most, you can still be charged with under the influence with less. I also do not belong or shoot at my local gun club because they serve beer and many shooters bring liquer. I have witnessed some stumbling while carrying their guns. There have been consideralble number of accidents resulting but mostly with their cars.

I knew of a felon released from prison in Arizona. Last one in Arizona sentenced for the classic stage robbery. His clothes, saddle and guns were returned to him. His horse had long ago died. Once upon a time full citizen rights were restored. That's no longer because of guaranteed repeat offenders.

For anyone who has ever been to a shooting range I remind you the rangemaster will have you disarm between target checks. Arms on the bench, action open and stand away. So, see, even there there is reason not to let you swagger down to your target with a loaded gun in hand or on hip.

[Bill of Rights]

Genghis: For the sake of the discussion, you note that the homeowner's ass'n president and the gate guard were both irresponsible with their cars, their alcohol and their weapons, but you don't advocate making the community alcohol-free or car-free, just gun-free. You seem to be saying that because these two acted irresponsibly, that YOU could not be trusted with your weapons either.

You say that there are some places that you think guns are ill-advised. Fine, I'll agree, so long as it's only "advice", because if it's law, the only ones who will be armed are the BGs.

You mention as well the incidents in which you were at gunpoint and how you managed to talk your way out of both situations, and for what it's worth, I'm glad you did. It seems to me that at least one of those situations was easily avoided; don't pick up hitchhikers. That said, though, you were attempting to do a kindness, and as such, while I question your decision, I applaud your big-heartedness.

The guns will do no harm to anyone by themselves. Whether in the hands of so-called pacifists, drunken college students, or hardened criminals, the gun is not the source of the harm that may be caused, but rather the person holding it. You say you're against university students being armed, stating that "Campuses have too much alcohol and drug use.", but I don't see you saying anything about removing alcohol and/or drugs from campuses. Drugs are illegal everywhere, and alcohol likewise, for those under 21, which is the majority of people on college campuses. So if these are the people who are the problem, why are you focusing on the guns and not the drugs, the alcohol, or the people who break the law?

You say that full restoration of rights ended because of "guaranteed repeat offenders", and you could well be correct on that. Why then, do we not keep those who are violent criminals behind bars until they are no longer a threat? If they're out, they should be trustworthy enough to have their rights (which are not government's to take away!) fully restored.

Lastly, you're correct that at a privately owned shooting range, with private membership rolls, they can set whatever rules they want. The members have the choice to belong or not, given the rules in place. Technically, I suppose we all have the choice of remaining American citizens, given the "rules", but I'm not relinquishing my citizenship. After fighting for our country as you did, I somehow doubt you will either.

Blessings,
M

[Genghis77]

Bummer! Our Gun Club range is actually owned by the city. They just decided to increase their profits with the alcohol sales. I can add another point of dislike is that they do prohibit something on the range. That is black powder weapons.

[VegasGeorge]

A gun club that sells alcohol? Geez! The club I just joined made it real clear that if alcohol is even smelled on your breath, you will be escorted off the property, and your membership will be revoked.

I think I like my club better.

[Bill of Rights]

I'm with you on that, George, and I think all of us that have posted here on the subject are in agreement that alcohol and gunpowder are not compatible.

Getting back to the issue of campus carry by students with LTCs, however, I think that those who would do so legally would be responsible enough to agree with the above as well. Those who do not... well... can YOU think of a better reason to carry? I can't!

Blessings,
M

[nodaywithout]

I'm with you on that, George, and I think all of us that have posted here on the subject are in agreement that alcohol and gunpowder are not compatible.

M

i try to stay away from both at the same time, i figure when you have two very flamable/explosive items at once it ususally will not end well

[VegasGeorge]

In all seriousness, I would feel safer on a university campus if I knew that CCW was allowed, just the way I feel safer down at the shopping mall. As far as I'm concerned, the more people carrying, the better. And, the idea of young people carrying doesn't bother me at all.

[Bill of Rights]

In all seriousness, I would feel safer on a university campus if I knew that CCW was allowed, just the way I feel safer down at the shopping mall. As far as I'm concerned, the more people carrying, the better. And, the idea of young people carrying doesn't bother me at all.

I have said before, I say now, and I will say again: I don't give a rat's tail end about "feeling" safe. I want to BE safe, and yes, on a university campus, in a mall, at a bar, in fact anywhere that law-abiding, peaceable citizens are not restricted or prevented from exercising their rights, the only ones who are not safer are the criminals who would victimize us.

Blessings,
M

[Genghis77]

No one has addressed the problem of students sharing dorm rooms, sometimes 2 dorm rooms sharing a bath. I am really wondering how you propose to deny access of this CCW while you are sleeping or in the shower. And in the same environment I have also found that a number of students were skilled at lock picking and stealing from other rooms. Keep in mind dorm rooms lack lots of security. In my university windo entry was common. Especially in 20 snow falls.

Then we have the problem of crowded halls and bumping into others. No problem unless a skilled pickpocket or something. And I have seen demonstrations of pickpockets stealing your t-shirt from under a 3 piece suit. Or maybe just someone bigger and faster than you.

There are so many problems. You could easily end up creating more problems than solved. Court rooms ban guns because of such things as divorce cases where one decides to off the ex. Complete ban is the only effective means.

As I said, my university did once allow guns. That was 1969 and thereabouts. But they ended up having accidental discharges, thefts and most important a very large number of suicides in following years. The result was a ban on all guns, even in vehicles. Alcohol was also banned and I understand tobacco is now also.

Rush into this and arm a bunch of students and have a protective shooting incident where others are killed or injured, you may see a huge anti gun back lash. I'm pretty good at hitting targets. In a building, I am highly concerned by metal, brick, hard floors. All of which can deflect bullet path. And I know better than to believe all bullets will be stopped by a body aimed at.

[Douva]

Argument: "Guns on campus would distract from the learning environment."

Answer: "Ask anyone in a concealed carry state when he or she last noticed another person carrying a concealed handgun. The word 'concealed' is in there for a reason."


Argument: "The last thing we need is a bunch of vigilantes getting into a shootout with a madman, particularly when it's been proven that trained police officers have an accuracy rate of only about 15%."

Answer: "Citizens with concealed handgun licenses are not vigilantes. They carry their concealed handguns as a means of getting themselves out of harm's way, not as an excuse to go chasing after bad guys. Whereas police shooting statistics involve scenarios such as pursuits down dark alleys and armed standoffs with assailants barricaded inside buildings, most civilian shootings happen at pointblank range. In the Luby's Cafeteria massacre, the Columbine High School massacre, and the Virginia Tech massacre, the assailants moved slowly and methodically, shooting their victims from pointblank range. A person doesn't have to be a deadeye shot to defend himself or herself against an assailant standing only a few feet away. It's highly unlikely that an exchange of gunfire between an armed citizen and a deranged killer would lead to more lives lost than would simply allowing an onslaught of execution-style murders to continue unchecked. Contrary to what the movies might have us believe, most real-world shootings don't go down like the train station shootout in 'The Untouchables.' Even the real Gunfight at the O.K. Corral, a shootout involving nine armed participants, lasted only about thirty seconds. It is unlikely that an exchange of gunfire between an armed assailant and an armed citizen would last more than a couple of seconds before one or both parties were disabled. And if the assailant were disabled, he couldn't do any more harm."


Argument: "How are first responders supposed to tell the difference between armed students and armed assailants?"

Answer: "This hasn't been an issue with concealed carry license holders in other walks of life, for several reasons. First and foremost, in the real world, shootouts are typically localized and over very quickly. It's not realistic to expect police to encounter an ongoing shootout between assailants and armed civilians. Second, police are trained to expect both armed bad guys AND armed good guys in tactical scenarios. Third, concealed handgun license holders are trained to use their firearms for self-defense. They are not trained to run through buildings looking for bad guys; therefore, the biggest distinction between the armed assailants and the armed civilians is that the armed civilians would be hiding with the civilians, and the armed assailants would be shooting at the civilians."


Argument: "Colleges are emotionally volatile environments, and adding guns into the mix will turn classroom debates into crime scenes."

Answer: "Before concealed handgun laws were passed throughout the United States, opponents claimed that such laws would turn disputes over parking spaces and traffic accidents into shootings. This did not prove to be the case. The same responsible adults--age twenty-one and above--now asking to be allowed to carry their concealed handguns on college campuses are already allowed to do so virtually everywhere else they go. They clearly do not let their emotions get the better of them in other arenas; therefore, no less should be expected of them on college campuses."


Argument: "The college lifestyle is defined by alcohol and drug abuse. Why would any sane person want to add guns to that mix?"

Answer: "This is NOT a debate about keeping firearms out of the hands of college students. This is a debate about allowing licensed individuals to carry their concealed firearms into campus buildings, the same way they carry them virtually everywhere else they go. College students can already legally purchase firearms. And every state that provides for legalized concealed carry has statutes prohibiting license holders from carrying while under the influence. Legalizing concealed carry on college campuses would not put guns into the hands of more college students or make it legal for a person to carry a firearm while under the influence."


Argument: "A dangerous person might jump someone who was carrying a gun, take the gun, and use it to do harm."

Answer: "Even assuming this hypothetical dangerous person knew that an individual was carrying a concealed handgun, which is unlikely, there are much easier ways for a criminal to acquire a firearm than by assaulting an armed individual."


Argument: "Dorms are notoriously vulnerable to theft. It would be too easy for someone to steal an unattended firearm from a dorm."

Answer: "The vulnerability of dorms to theft does not necessitate a campus-wide ban on concealed carry by licensed individuals. There are numerous other options, from community gun lockers to small, private gun safes that can be secured to walls, floors, bed frames, etc."


Argument: "Self-defense training is as effective as a handgun against an armed assailant."

Short Answer: "Bullshit."

Long Answer: "If you're going to try to manually disarm an assailant, you'd better be within an arm's length of him, be standing on firm ground, and not have any obstacles between you and him. If he's is standing four feet away from you, you're probably out of luck. If you're sitting in a chair or lying on the floor, you're probably out of luck. If there's a desk between you and him, you're probably out of luck. And if you're elderly or disabled, you're probably out of luck. Even a well-trained martial arts expert is no match for a bullet fired from eight feet away. Why should honest, law abiding citizens be asked to undergo years of training, in order to master an inferior method of self-defense?"


Argument: "Colleges are too crowded to safely allow the carry of concealed weapons."

Answer: "Colleges are no more crowded than movie theaters and office buildings, where concealed handgun license holders are already allowed to carry their firearms."

[Bill of Rights]

Welcome Douva. I like your style.

Blessings,
M