Questions on Ca Permit

[DAN]

Firstflight asked me a question on how I got a permit in California.

I have had one since 79 and have not let it expire. I do live in a county with less than a million people, but they do not give away permits. Calif does not recognize any other handgun permit and it is a felony to carry concealed without one.

I have found that there are several things that will help you obtain a permit.

Become and NRA Pistol Instructor - well worth your time.

Take the new NRA Concealed Carry Course, Protection Outside the Home

Apply for a California DOJ Handgaun safety Instructor Certificate. Any NRA Instructor qualifies, $14.00.

Contact you Police Dept and offer Firearm Safety in the Home Course as a community service.

Become a Utah CCW Instructor ( token deal, must be an NRA or post instructor).

With these things accomplished, make a face to face appointment with your Police Chief and ask how to get a permit. Even if you don't get one you have gained valuable skills and experience.

DAN

[FirstFlight]

Hello Dan:

There is no doubt that your suggestions would help in some counties. In others, they wouldn't cut it. Knowing my Chief of Police, if I apporached him about a class in home defense he would throw me out the door! Well OK, not quite that bad, he would just ask me to leave. Law enforcement in my county doesn't even want the people to have guns at home. The unfortunate part about California's CCW system is how it so unequal from county to county. That "Up To The Sheriff's Discretion" clause in the California Penal Code is the problem. If it were removed, California would be a shall issue state.

If you are not familiar with the CaliforniaCCW.org forum, check it out. Lots of inputs there, mostly from the counties that don't issue. Another forum, CalCCW.com is primarily a ccw forum for Orange County guys. The Orange county sheriff issues.

Another county that issues is Mariposa. The Sheriff recently wrote in a local newspaper that "one does not see any home invasions in his county because he issues CCWs to all qualified law abiding citizens. All the homes have guns".

[DAN]

FirstFlight, sorry to hear you are in one of the 6 counties out of 55 that flat do not issue. I travel around most of Cal training LE and emergency response agencies and I get the drift.

I am familiar with the web sights you mentioned and have at one time or another been involved with many if not all of the pro gun activities in Cal.

I just have a different perception of the situation due to where I live. Fresno County 7000+ permits, Tulare county 6000+ permits, same for Kern, Madera, Mariposa the list goes on and on.

Dan

[VegasGeorge]

FirstFlight, sorry to hear you are in one of the 6 counties out of 55 that flat do not issue.

I didn't realize that 49 California Counties issue permits. Are those permits valid in California Cities/Counties that don't issue?

There is a big difference between "shall issue," and "maybe, maybe not" depending on how the Sheriff feels about the way you look.

[FirstFlight]

Hi VegasGeorge....

You are right, 49 counties in CA don't issue. I don't have the numbers but it is usually considered to be about 20 counties that issue one way or the other. A few will issue using a just cause of personal protection. The others require additional reasons but nothing that most people have a problem with. Lets see, in the San Francisco Bay Area, all the counties only issue to judges, lawyers, someone with documentation showing their life or someone in their familys life is being threatened, polictical favors and if, on your job, you carry large amounts of money to the bank. The Bay Area counties are San Francisco, San Mateo, Santa Clara, Alameda, Conta Costa, Marin (Sean Penn got one in Marin). Just south of the Bay Area Santa Cruz and Monterey just issue to the important people. I know that it is also tough in Sacramento, Santa Barbara and Los Angeles.

The problem in the Bay Area counties is that all the politicians (from city councils to senators) are anti gun Democrats. So, to run for Sheriff in those counties, one must spout the party line to get the approval and support from the Democrats. I am not bad mouthing Democrats, there are many that are good pro gun types. Many of the states that have shall issue laws are controlled by the Democrats. Unfortunatly, California has more than the normal amount of anti gunners.

[DAN]

Vegas George, only 6 counties state that they will not issue, all of the others issue permits. It is all available through the public info act.

Now as far as the issue counties, It can be the good old boy system or political system or I issue when I want system. This all changes with elections, 75% of the calif counties vote republican, just not the populated ones.
But only 6 counties state that they do not issue. Cities inside of no issue counties can issue if they want. Most of the counties are in the bay area and then there is Orange county down south.
Last weekend we had shoot with CCW trainers from all over the state and they are all really busy.

The permits are calif DOJ permits and they are good throughout Calif, except the normal places, airport, schools, National Parks etc.

Like I said to Firstflight, My perspective is really different than his.
Dan

[FirstFlight]

Hello Dan:

You say there are 6 counties that STATE THEY DO NOT ISSUE? Can you give me the names of those counties? It would seem to me if a Sheriff stated he will not issue to anyone, he is in violation of the California Penal Code. Wouldn't he be setting himself up for a law suit that he could not win? I noticed you included Orange county with the Bay Area counties as no issue. Orange county is very much an issue county, almost shall issue. By the way, all the Bay Area counties ISSUE. But only to the IMPORTANT PEOPLE.

You say the other 49 counties issue. Who do they issue to? Can you give me examples of the Good Cause reasons needed to get issued in those 49 counties?

[DAN]

FirstFlight, I can send you the information. My firm did a survey of Concealed Weapon Permits in Calif. ( Feb 2006) for a client. I can send you a summary but not the total report. It is not for public consumption.

I do not see a Sheriff or police chief having any problem with the 12050
wording since it states "May be granted" in several locations. Will is never mentioned in PC12050.

"Showing good cause" runs all over the board from carring large amounts of cash to your a citizen of the county. So there is no indication of common ground. It is all personal and varies from time to time on who is elected.

Send me your E-mail and I will send you an attachment. It will only be 2 pages. Nothing set in stone just a phone and walk in survey. It only took us 4 days to put the 26 page report together. Easy to get info. The client used it for there own marketing. Good info but not out for publication.

And the Orange county thing is based on you cannot pass the permit application process and testing if you did not have a Calif Safe Gun. That put Orange and Fresno at the time into the bad guy list do to being unreasonable. Orange still has that requirement. I think Orange is the only one left doing this. You can only carry guns they OK.
DAN[/quote]

[nodaywithout]

How would one become a NRA pistol instructor?

[FirstFlight]

Hello Dan:

Very good. Yes, please email/attachement the summary of that report. I will send you my email after I finish with this.

My argument on a Sheriff making a flat statement that he/she will not issue...period could get them into a law suit. My reasoning is that the California CCW law 12050 was written to issue CCW permits to persons that the Sheriff considered of good moral character, have a good cause, a training certificate and can pass the background check. Yes, 12050 does say May Be Issued but it wasn't written NOT to give CCWs. If 10,000 people apply to a sheriff and NONE of them are issued a CCW, that means the Sheriff is doing something wrong. The odds are out of that many applicants there would have to be (some) that qualified. Or, if he/she flatly states no issue to anyone, they have also violated the spirit of Penal Code 12050.

[CA CCWInstructor]

I just have a different perception of the situation due to where I live. Fresno County 7000+ permits, Tulare county 6000+ permits, same for Kern, Madera, Mariposa the list goes on and on.

Dan

Can I ask where you got these numbers from? They are very different than what CA-DOJ publishes per PC 12053. Which can be viewed at:
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ccwissuances2006.pdf

[CA CCWInstructor]

Hi VegasGeorge....

You are right, 49 counties in CA don't issue. I don't have the numbers but it is usually considered to be about 20 counties that issue one way or the other.

1) California has 58 counties, not 55.

2) ALL counties have CCW's issued. San Benito and San Franciso have the least.

[DAN]

Greg, the Tulare and Fresno figures are by them during Training conducted, Inflated but ? @ 2 years per permit 2700 issued per year.

I will ask for clarification tomarrow and see what they say.
I am familiar with the DOJ chart and #s represented as outstanding permits.
Don't they look kinda strange?? Many counties same now as 1987? with a hugh population increase and people do die?

You have been in the business for a while, what do you think about the numbers?
DAN

[DAN]

Greg, you got my interest up. I called the LE reps for the CCW orientation and both counties stuck by the numbers they have been using.

SOOOO I called the issue desks for each and they both could/would not give me a number but both said that the numbers were way up over the last 10 years.
When I asked them about the DOJ numbers they said they would suggest using those numbers for any reference unless I wanted to petition the county for exact numbers. Fresno also stated that they don't think they have updated the numbers with DOJ for years.
Interesting!!!
So any future reference will be to the DOJ chart and we will let the counties do what they do.
Thanks for the question, sometimes if we do what have always done we get what we always get.
DAN
Oh and the 55 county figure is another county LE reference. "55 counties issue permits and 3 (smaller counties) farm out the issues to DOJ or under an agreement with ajacent counties." This I will also check to see if it is current.

[CA CCWInstructor]

Per State law. PC12053

12053. (a) A record of the following shall be maintained in the
office of the licensing authority:
(1) The denial of a license.
(2) The denial of an amendment to a license.
(3) The issuance of a license.
(4) The amendment of a license.
(5) The revocation of a license.
(b) Copies of each of the following shall be filed immediately by
the issuing officer or authority with the Department of Justice:
(1) The denial of a license.
(2) The denial of an amendment to a license.
(3) The issuance of a license.
(4) The amendment of a license.
(5) The revocation of a license.
(c) Commencing on or before January 1, 2000, and annually
thereafter, each licensing authority shall submit to the Attorney
General the total number of licenses issued to peace officers,
pursuant to subparagraph (C) of paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) of
Section 12050, and to judges, pursuant to subparagraph (A) or (B) of
paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) of Section 12050. The Attorney
General shall collect and record the information submitted pursuant
to this subdivision by county and licensing authority.


I really don't see them lying or fudging the numbers. With the counties I personal know those number are very close.

The numbers have been dropping in general a quick overview.

Overall when had 1,635 LESS CCW's in 2006 compaired to 2005.

THE TOP 10 LOSERS
1) Shasta County 571 less permits
2) Tehama County 223 less permits
3) San Diego Cty 162 less permits
4) Tulare County 149 less permits
5) San Bernardino 110 less permits
6) El Darado Cty 87 less permits
7) Placer County 86 less permits
8) Tuolumme Cty 79 less permits
9) Kern County 71 less permits
10)Los Angeles Cty 69 less permits

ALL THE WINNERS
1) Contra Costa Cty 121 more permits
2) Mendocino Cty 87 more permits
3) Colusa County 75 more permits
4) Butte County 72 more permits
5) Lake County 31 more permits
6) Sutter County 27 more permits
7) Fresno County 26 more permits
8) Orange County 24 more permits
9) Riverside County 14 more permits
10)San Benito Cty 8 more permits
11) Yuba County 2 more permits

[Poogsdad]

As CA CCWInstructor has already noted, California does issue CCW permits.

Issuing authority is the County Sheriff for unincorporated areas or the Chief of Police for incorporated areas.

Many Police Chiefs elect to not issue CCWs and refer to the County Sheriff for issuance of CCWs.

Many counties are practically "Shall Issue" while others are extremely restrictive, depending on the issuing authority.

The following URL: http://www.calccw.com/Forums/county-faq/ will take you to a great deal of information regarding California County specific CCW issuance.

Thanks,

[junglebob]

I had seen an article posted on the internet giving suggestions for getting a permit in a "may issue state. Maybe I can find it again. Here are some things that I remember.

You may be "interviewed" when you go for a CCW permit. If so go dressed conservatively. No jeans with holes and patches or outrageous T-shirts, dress like you were going for a job interview for an important job.

If the during your interview the person seems like they may deny your application, say you have decided to withdraw your application.
Many states have on the application have you ever been denied a permit? Try again later with another person. If there is more than one office you can apply to go to another that is less antagonistic.

If you have a permit(s) from another state(s) bring them along to show the interviewer, this makes it harder for them to deny your permit, as you have already shown that another state(s) find you eligible for a permit. Have copys of any training certificates that you have for firearm courses you have taken.

Another suggestion if applying for a non-resident permit the issuing person may not know they exist, and will say you must be a resident. Say
"I heard that they did, can you check on that for sure?" Then wait while the bureaurat looks up the law on license issuing.

Know what the reasons are for them issuing a license and try to meet those guidelines. I imagine it is better to have multiple reasons.

[Bill of Rights]

(paraphrasing an article he read) Many states have on the application have you ever been denied a permit?

Good info overall, JB, and thank you. I do want to specifically respond to this, in that if they ask that question, typically they also give a place to explain anything not well-addressed in the text of the form.

Additionally, I'll note that if I lived somewhere that had strict restrictions like that, I'd likely have applied for Utah and/or Florida non-resident first, for precisely the noted reason: If two states have vetted me for a permit, it's awfully hard for another to justify saying no.

Lastly, I'll note another tough one for them to ignore: FFL C&R.

This requires no business place; the fee is $30/3 years, and it you volunteer yourself for an FBI background check. Your CLEO still has to sign off on it, but the decision to issue is federal, not local, and it's hard for them to say no when the only reason the CLEO has is, "Uh.. cuz ah didn' wanna givvit to 'im". Too, once the CLEO has signed off on the C&R license, how can he then say you're not worthy of a LTC?http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd198/St-Michael/thumb.gif

Cogito, ergo porto.

Blessings,
M

[hygyliac]

You may be "interviewed" when you go for a CCW permit. If so go dressed conservatively. No jeans with holes and patches or outrageous T-shirts, dress like you were going for a job interview for an important job.

Many states have on the application have you ever been denied a permit? Try again later with another person. If there is more than one office you can apply to go to another that is less antagonistic.

If you have a permit(s) from another state(s) bring them along to show the interviewer, this makes it harder for them to deny your permit, as you have already shown that another state(s) find you eligible for a permit. Have copys of any training certificates that you have for firearm courses you have taken.



Good advice on the attire. Presenting a wild and wooly appearance may weigh against you.

Yes, the "Have you EVER been denied " question does appear.

In California, just as Poogsdad mentioned, the Chief of a Municipal Dept. may issue or they may direct you to the County. But as professional courtesy, the County will ask you to first approach the Municipal, they don't walk to step on any toes. If the Municipal won't issue, then you have the option of approaching the County. In some areas, like where I reside, there is a definite path of travel and you have only one Agency that issues.

Unfortunately California does not recognize CCWs from other states, so having one will not factor into the equation (in California). My New Hampshire CCW on the other hand asked for copies (front and back) of my state CCW or any others states CCWs. I believe that they do follow what Junglebob posted.

[Bill of Rights]

Yes, the "Have you EVER been denied " question does appear.
...
Unfortunately California does not recognize CCWs from other states, so having one will not factor into the equation (in California).

It may not figure for the sake of reciprocity, however if you've satisfied that requirements and proven yourself to not be a criminal in the eyes of the law (though why the burden of proof is on us, I know not), it's more difficult for them to say that you're somehow not worthy of their trust- they have more difficulty justifying it, in other words.

This is only my perception, but you're free to share it if you like. :)

Blessings,
M

[CA CCWInstructor]

Having to many CCW's has worked against people. They think you are collecting them. As far as having other ccw's that does not make it easier to get a CA one. They do not look at your skills with a gun or if you are trust worthy. They just look at your need to carry.


People get approved with no firearms experience at all.