Guns on Campus being Discussed

[VegasGeorge]

I found this article of interest:

http://www.lvrj.com/news/33349259.html

For some reason, I have a visceral negative reaction to the idea of allowing grade school teachers to bring guns into their classrooms. I think it results from a fear that the risk of irresponsible teachers outweighs the risk of psycho attack in a grade school. I don't feel that way about middle school and up. What do you think?

[calmp9]

I found this article of interest:

http://www.lvrj.com/news/33349259.html

For some reason, I have a visceral negative reaction to the idea of allowing grade school teachers to bring guns into their classrooms. I think it results from a fear that the risk of irresponsible teachers outweighs the risk of psycho attack in a grade school. I don't feel that way about middle school and up. What do you think?

Regarding teachers carrying concealed weapons, I think that are bringing up some valid concerns. It's not simply training to carry a handgun when children are involved. There has to be much more training.

[varminter22]

I'm not sure I totally agree.

How much additional training do you think is necessary???

CCW is CCW. Safety is safety. Bad things can and do happen everywhere, including schools. Why shouldn't teachers be allowed to CCW??

[VegasGeorge]

I've had a couple of days to think about this now. I'm changing my mind. Irresponsible teachers will just have to be dealt with as situations arise. I'm for giving up these gun free zones altogether. They just don't work, and I don't see as how the grade school example is any different.

[BiblicalFirst]

George, I think that is a good change of mind. :thumbsup: I strongly support elimination of gun free zones.

Concerning grade schools, I know you are familiar with the number of shootings perpetrated by CCW holders, and also with the number of juvenile violent criminals in the grade school age bracket. I just want to contribute my own experience.

One of my grade school teachers carried (legally) for the whole time I was in grade school (and still does). He used his gun to kill a few rabid coons on field trips, but beyond that my only memory of him drawing his gun was to shoot at the range or to teach us gun safety. Of course he is one of the responsible CCW holders out there, and yes I am biased - He was one of my two favorite teachers.

OK, I do have a confession to make. I didn't go to a public grade school. I went to a home school. ;) However, the fact remains that my grade school teacher has carried as a school teacher for 25 years without once threatening another person with his gun.

Do you dislike my example? Please allow me to expand on it a little. Our school is a member of an association with more than 80,000 other home schools (almost all of which have a grade school). (Note: There are many other home school associations in the US besides mine.) If only 10% of those schools have CCW permited teachers (I think 50%), that would be 8000 grade schools where 50-100% of the staff have a CCW permit. Hmm... have you heard of even one instance of a shooting in one of these gun-unfree grade schools? I haven't. (Gun-unfree zone? I guess I just coined that one. ;))

Let me take this one step further. Of the 80,000 grade schools in my association, I would guess that 98% of them keep firearms on the premises very near the classrooms. To be generous, lets say only 75% of them keep firearms in their home school. That would be 60,000 grade schools!

While I may be wrong, I would think that with more than 60,000 gun-unfree grade schools in the US, we should have heard by now of a shooting - if there really was a problem with arming grade school teachers.

Does that make sense?

Please critique my argument. I just built it off the cuff after reading your post. (While I haven't critically analyzed it yet, I'm afraid that my argument will only persuade people who think highly of home schooling.) Thanks and God bless.:)

[Bill of Rights]

George, I think that is a good change of mind. :thumbsup: I strongly support elimination of gun free zones.

Concerning grade schools, I know you are familiar with the number of shootings perpetrated by CCW holders, and also with the number of juvenile violent criminals in the grade school age bracket. I just want to contribute my own experience.

One of my grade school teachers carried (legally) for the whole time I was in grade school (and still does). He used his gun to kill a few rabid coons on field trips, but beyond that my only memory of him drawing his gun was to shoot at the range or to teach us gun safety. Of course he is one of the responsible CCW holders out there, and yes I am biased - He was one of my two favorite teachers.

OK, I do have a confession to make. I didn't go to a public grade school. I went to a home school. ;) However, the fact remains that my grade school teacher has carried as a school teacher for 25 years without once threatening another person with his gun.

Do you dislike my example? Please allow me to expand on it a little. Our school is a member of an association with more than 80,000 other home schools (almost all of which have a grade school). (Note: There are many other home school associations in the US besides mine.) If only 10% of those schools have CCW permited teachers (I think 50%), that would be 8000 grade schools where 50-100% of the staff have a CCW permit. Hmm... have you heard of even one instance of a shooting in one of these gun-unfree grade schools? I haven't. (Gun-unfree zone? I guess I just coined that one. ;))

Let me take this one step further. Of the 80,000 grade schools in my association, I would guess that 98% of them keep firearms on the premises very near the classrooms. To be generous, lets say only 75% of them keep firearms in their home school. That would be 60,000 grade schools!

While I may be wrong, I would think that with more than 60,000 gun-unfree grade schools in the US, we should have heard by now of a shooting - if there really was a problem with arming grade school teachers.

Does that make sense?

Please critique my argument. I just built it off the cuff after reading your post. (While I haven't critically analyzed it yet, I'm afraid that my argument will only persuade people who think highly of home schooling.) Thanks and God bless.:)

Agreed, this is a good change, George. Criminal Protection Zones/Victim Disarmament Zones do not work. I would say that all of them need to be eliminated, save perhaps penal facilities to include hospitals for the criminally insane.

BF, the only argument you'll get on this one is from those who will say that because someone homeschools his/her children, s/he is not a "real" teacher. This, of course, is untrue, but that's the argument you'll get.

Blessings,
B

[VegasGeorge]

Yes, I"m satisfied and sticking with my change in mind about this. But, just for the record, and since I have it better formulated now, let me state my misgivings.

I guess that all of you know how smart and devious little kids can be. And, their attraction to guns is well known. Classrooms are a fairly intimate environment, and I think the information that teacher has a gun is going to get around. Beyond doubt, little hands and minds are going to be looking for a way to get the gun. Frankly, I don't see that as a problem for tough minded, discipline oriented, firearms safety conscious teachers. But, how many of them are there? The teachers I know don't fit that description. The teachers I know are liberal, do what feels right, give everyone a break, laid back types. It's hard for me to imagine them keeping track of where they put the gun, let alone making sure it doesn't get swiped by the little buggers in their classroom. I just have doubts about how serious minded, rigorously disciplined, and dependable teachers will be when charged with the responsibility of carrying a firearm.

But, like I've said, I've changed my mind. The 2nd Amendment trumps my misgivings, and I realize that gun free zones are a joke. I say, let them carry in the classroom. We'll see what happens.

[BiblicalFirst]

George I see what you are saying. Arming all school teachers might not be a good idea since many of them don't know anything about guns, however, we're not pushing teacher armament. We just want any citizen who chooses to carry to have the freedom to make crime as dangerous inside as it is outside of schools. I guess that’s what you said too. :)

Concerning weapon retention, I understand your concern if the teacher dosn't control the gun all the time (in holster, hand or locker). I’m wondering though, if it will be easier for a kid to get a gun from his CCW permitted teacher, or will it be easier for the same kid to get a gun (illegal and probably not locked) from his Dad's room at home?

I also have doubts about how effective these regulations on law abiding citizens (teachers) are at keeping illegal guns out of schools?

I worked at a camp in the woods for several years. Occasionally we would bring in buses of young kids from downtown Hartford. I didn't work directly with the kids, but one of their social workers told us to be very careful to not ‘dis’ any of them. Why? because several of them were carrying. If these kids were carrying on the buses and at camp, what do you think are the chances they carry to school too?

Basically what I’m saying is that legal guns in schools won’t increase the number of guns in schools dramatically. It will just mean that a few will be in the hands of responsible citizens.

Thanks for responding George. I'm just trying to figure out my own position and get feedback.:)

[BiblicalFirst]

BF, the only argument you'll get on this one is from those who will say that because someone homeschools his/her children, s/he is not a "real" teacher. This, of course, is untrue, but that's the argument you'll get.
Thanks Bill. Yes, I see that argument. Actually I’m not sure it matters.

If they say that home school parents are teachers, then we have an excellent precedent of violence free gun-unfree grade schools all across the country.
But even if they say home school parents are not teachers, will they state that public school teachers are a greater threat of violence to kids than home school parents?

Actually, I think that every home which has guns and kids is evidence which absolutely contradicts the claim that allowing guns in a building where kids learn and spend large amounts of time will breed shootings.

Again this is just off the cuff. Thanks for your comments. :) God bless.