Had a FEAR moment at the airport the other nightnight.

[DAN]

Checked my bag with my fire arm and ammo as normal. This airport required me to take my bag over to TSA for a visual check.

The TSA gal took out my box of ammo and opened it, Then took my firearm out of the case on the same table. My immediate thought was she was going to go postal. I mentioned that having the ammunition open and the firearm on the same table probably was not a good idea. She looked at me then got the drift and aked me to put everything back and lock it up. I did and then filed a written complaint with the supervisor.

I know she would have done the same thing with the rest of my team but she reconsidered after our discussion.

CCW trainers this might be a good area for discussion with students. Don't assume anything.

The kicker.... she has been there 4 years.

DAN

[VegasGeorge]

I simply refuse to fly anymore because of the humiliating and degrading security regulations and procedures. I'm sure that a big part of that problem is the low quality, untrained, stupid people they employ to enforce their rules. Luckily, I'm retired, and don't have to fly for any reason.

I agree that spreading weapons and ammo out at the same time is a bad idea in a security controlled area. Of course, I think that passengers ought to be allowed to carry on flights. So, I wouldn't have any security areas anyway.

[Bill of Rights]

I simply refuse to fly anymore because of the humiliating and degrading security regulations and procedures. I'm sure that a big part of that problem is the low quality, untrained, stupid people they employ to enforce their rules. Luckily, I'm retired, and don't have to fly for any reason.

I agree that spreading weapons and ammo out at the same time is a bad idea in a security controlled area. Of course, I think that passengers ought to be allowed to carry on flights. So, I wouldn't have any security areas anyway.

I'm with you on that, George! Armed passengers would stop threats in a hurry. (Hijacking? Pretty stupid way to die. I feel sorry for the crew who has to mop up the BG's blood when it's all over, though. Too, something from a Clancy novel (Rainbow 6): reference was made to an attempted hijacking of, if memory serves, an Ethiopian airline. The mutts were caught, tied up, sat in the first row with towels about their upper bodies and their throats cut from ear to ear, right there on the plane. The message was clear and NOBODY messed with that airline afterward. Granted, Clancy writes fiction, but we all know how he interweaves fact, too. I'm waiting for someone to tell me that either this won't work or that it's "playing judge, jury, and executioner" or vigilante justice.)

I wish I could say I don't fly anymore for the same reasons you don't. When I had to fly earlier this month to my father's funeral, I had to go through the whole rigamarole, to include removing the change from my pocket. ("Those are heavy metals!", I was told. Somehow I refrained from turning on the music player on my phone. :P ) I chose to make that trip unarmed, but I didn't like it very much. For three days, I felt like I was constantly forgetting something.

Blessings,
M

[Stubob]

Dan - Wow - I agree with the others, I quit flying after 9/11 as it was painful to check the gun. This is a good training moment for CCW instructors.

I walked up on an Airport just as a gun had been fired. This happend several years ago. A hunter was going on a hunt and had to demonstrate that the gun was unloaded and shot the roof. Securtiy and everyone was running around.

Always treat a gun like it is loaded, and watch what the TSA folks are doing in line. If you noticed so did other people.

thanks for your post and heads up. :shock:

[DAN]

What I see on the range and among the people I know who carry I would not want most of them armed on a plane. I think we would have a bunch of holes in a bunch of airplanes.

There is a real world out there and many people fly, so as trainers I would hope we would train them in the present not what use to be or what is somewhere else.
DAN

[Genghis77]

First I want to say I am against passengers flying with firearms, other than those in baggage. I am for armed pilots, air marshalls and would extend it to stewards and stewardesses.

But I want to dispell the claims of explosive decompression by a bullet. Unlike the James Bond movie it won't happen. Myth Busters ran test. Some of their shows pretty iffy. But this one was good. They pressurised a plane and blew out windows with explosive charges. Only when they got up to 4X4 foot windows did they get explosive decompression. And still it was not all that bad. Mainly pulling things out within 8 or 10 feet of the window.

Second is a bullet piercing the airplane's controls. My familiarity is mainly F-15's and C-130's. But commercial planes are similar. All instrumentation and controls are known as redundant. Meaning there are at least 2 sometimes 3 parallel controls. Shoot one out, the plane still flies.

With about 300 people aboard some planes, always a chance of hitting an innocent. My reason for leaving it to air marshalls, pilots and steward crew.

Thought I would throw out some facts. By the way, ammunition has virtually no chance of detonating aboard an airliner. Propane and aerasol cans lighters can.

Increase the training beyond just that of a CCW holder as well as psychological profile test and I would definitely be open to extending carry aboard permits to those passengers.

[nodaywithout]

Wow.....well if anything it she could not have gone postal... maybe ups interenational hehehe (snicker)

[SnowCajun]

First I want to say I am against passengers flying with firearms, other than those in baggage. I am for armed pilots, air marshalls and would extend it to stewards and stewardesses.
I don't like to fly anyway, but when I have to these are my views. First off I wouldn't feel comfortable with armed stewardesses and this is why, if a hijacker knows the stewardesses are armed then it would be easier for them to catch one off guard and take their weapon since they know ahead of time that they have one. That way they wouldn't have to worry about trying to sneak their own guns aboard! Stewardesses are busy doing their duties, and a plane load of people keeps them hopping most of the time anyway.

I like the Air Marshall idea because no one knows who they are, so they're a surprise equation/risk that has to be factored into a take over because you don't know which passenger is the Marshall and a hijacker could be shot before gaining control of the airplane.

I definitely am in favor of armed pilots, they're the last line of keeping control of the plane behind their locked cockpit door, I think they need to be armed and would hope for all our safety the airlines eventually see this as a good idea.

I simply refuse to fly anymore because of the humiliating and degrading security regulations and procedures. I'm sure that a big part of that problem is the low quality, untrained, stupid people they employ to enforce their rules.
VegasGeorge, I'm not sure why you feel this way, at least towards the regulations anyway. I'd rather go through the trouble than to have someone take over the airplane I'm on and fly it into a building, and that happened four times in one day with three of the planes hitting buildings and the last one being stopped from hitting a building only because of a plane load of patriotic and caring heroes who stopped that from happening by giving their own lives when they forced in the door causing the hijacker to crash the plane before ever reaching his target. Like all the "Remember the's" in our US history, we'll always remember 9/11, just like we'll always remember Pearl Harbor, and the Alamo!!

VegasGeorge said, "I'm sure that a big part of that problem is the low quality, untrained, stupid people they employ to enforce their rules." Have you looked up the definition of "Prejudice" lately? Your prejudicial statement here I find rather sad. I think you could have left out the "low quality" and "stupid" descriptions and just gone with "untrained", but even that would probably not be right. You can be trained and still make a mistake.

Just so you'll reconsider your wording next time allow me to help you with how Websters defines "Prejudice". (1): preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b: an instance of such judgment or opinion c: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics.

Any job that includes mass repitition of the same assembly line type movements over an all day time frame can put people almost into a trance like state, it's dull, it's boring, but it's also mind draining as well to repeat the same thing over and over for an eight hour shift. If the security is failing their duties I would imagine it would be by doing that for too long of periods with no change, I would think people need to be rotated at a greater rate.

I had a friend many years ago, he's gone now, but he was a bookkeeper in the old days before computers were common, he had worked as a laborer in his youth digging ditches. One thing I've always remembered him telling me was that he went home more tired from the bookkeeper job than he ever did from the ditch digging job. The mental drain can be equal to, or even greater, than the physical drain. I know I've worked myself into exhaustion to the point of making mistakes before also. Mistakes are human nature, they will always be made, the system will never be perfect because we're not now, nor ever will we ever be, perfect! Never the less to toss daggers at people like you did here is .. is ... well it was just uncalled for. You damage your own reputation when you spit out prejudicial statements like that.

Just my 2 cents,

[Bill of Rights]

I think you could have ... just gone with "untrained", but even that would probably not be right. You can be trained and still make a mistake.

...

Any job that includes mass repitition of the same assembly line type movements over an all day time frame can put people almost into a trance like state, it's dull, it's boring, but it's also mind draining as well to repeat the same thing over and over for an eight hour shift. If the security is failing their duties I would imagine it would be by doing that for too long of periods with no change, I would think people need to be rotated at a greater rate....

You're correct, SnowCajun, that our TSA folks are not untrained, but Dan is also correct that they're not well-trained in firearms use and safety. Their positions, sadly, are good ones for people who wish to abuse the power they have. I can tell my story as to why I say this, but I don't think it's necessary at the moment.

You further made the point that the mind-numbing job they do makes mistakes something to be expected, and while I know this is controversial, I think the answer is not to rotate them more or make it exciting or interesting for them, but rather I think the answer is to abolish them. Norman Lear, the producer of "All in the Family" had Carroll O'Connor's Archie Bunker propose it once to great laughter (by the laugh track, anyway) that armed passengers would deter hijackings, etc. Air marshals are good, armed pilots are better, but an armed population of passengers would be best of all. Let's say the plane is 120 passengers and 5% are armed... 6 people. Plus the pilot, plus the terrorist. Does the terrorist grab a (possibly but not definitely armed) flight attendant as a hostage? Not without knowing that one person behind him isn't armed, and face it, if you're headed for the cockpit, there's always the possibility that one behind you (the pilot) is armed, to say nothing of the other flight attendant. I still say hijacking would quickly become a really stupid way to die.

Blessings,
B

[DAN]

snowcajun, don't want to be picky but that was not my quote. I fly in and out side the US many times a year.
Bill of Rights, If most of the people I see flying were armed I probably would not get anywhere near a plane. The general public you deal with must be totally different then the ones I deal with. Just because someone is armed does not mean they are safe.
Dan

[Bill of Rights]

Dan, I refer to those who have permits. I don't much like the permit system, and I don't agree that to get one, someone has to jump through hoops, but I do think that those who would carry on a plane are the same ones who carry now in society... people like you and me.

I would even agree with the airline (a privately owned company) setting the rule that one must have taken X safety course or it's equivalent prior to carrying, so long as the cost of that course is manageable for the majority of people-that is, it's not cost-prohibitive by design.

In short, I want the people who are predisposed to be responsible, upstanding citizens to be able to mobilize in their own defense if the need arises.

Blessings,
B

[SnowCajun]

snowcajun, don't want to be picky but that was not my quote. I fly in and out side the US many times a year.
Dan
My apologies Dan, somehow my old eyes saw your name and missed the correct posters name. I've gone back and edited it, I wish I had done so earlier but I fell asleep awhile. God now I'm taking daytime naps too, there really are no golden years!

I hope I've corrected it properly.
Sorry about that!

[SnowCajun]

You're correct, SnowCajun, that our TSA folks are not untrained, but Dan is also correct that they're not well-trained in firearms use and safety. Their positions, sadly, are good ones for people who wish to abuse the power they have.
In debating your point, not arguing it, I live in a state where all you have to have to get a CCW is a clean background, all the rest of your knowledge of firearms safety must be assumed because there's absolutely zero training or testing required, just your money and a clean record. I can't disagree with the point though because I've really not dealt with these people before to have an opinion if they're qualified or not, but I do agree that placing the weapon and the ammunition on the same table wasn't the brightest idea of the century!

You further made the point that the mind-numbing job they do makes mistakes something to be expected, and while I know this is controversial, I think the answer is not to rotate them more or make it exciting or interesting for them, but rather I think the answer is to abolish them.
Personally I don't think we're ready for that yet, not with so many people openly stating how badly they hate the USA and are wanting to hurt us. That doesn't mean I have the answers either though. I do know that I definitely want to see criminals or terrorists stopped from getting on a plane with a weapon and whatever it takes to do that I'm not greatly objectional about, even if it costs me a few more minutes waiting to get on the plane.

Air marshals are good, armed pilots are better, but an armed population of passengers would be best of all. Let's say the plane is 120 passengers and 5% are armed... 6 people. Plus the pilot, plus the terrorist.
I'm not completely objectionable to the armed passengers thing, I know at 55 years of age that I'm safe enough to carry and should have proven so after a lifetime of zero criminal issues! I guess the theory is that the government feels they're keeping the airplanes free of weapons of all kinds so it's not necessary for us to carry. I know you don't agree with that, I guess I don't totally agree with it either.

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the Air Marshalls use some kind of special bullets that won't penetrate the skin of an airplane but will penetrate a human body, or am I mistaken about hearing that somewhere? Rereading what I just wrote here seems silly in a way because if they don't penetrate the skin of the airplane then they'd be ricochetting all around and that'd not be safe either?

Hmm.. my 2 cents here only feels like 1 cent.. sorry!

[Bill of Rights]

I believe the types of rounds you refer to are "Glaser Safety Slugs", but I don't know if they use them.

The whole "war on terror" is a farce. How can you have a "war" against an intangible like that? There is no one (except OUR government) to surrender, no one to agree to stop fighting, in short, no possible end except that which happened in the war on drugs, the war on crime, the war on poverty, and all the other so-called unwinnable wars we've "fought". These battles are best fought one on one, not as a government against [b]nothing[b].

Blessings,
B

[45Fan]

I don’t understand some of the earlier posts? Are we thinking that armed passengers are more dangerous than a terrorist?

I have to respectfully disagree here. You dont have to have a handgun to bring down an airplane or harm fellow passengers. CCW holders have been proven to be an asset in every State where they are "allowed" to exercise their right to carry.

The people getting on the plane pass you everyday in a car doing 70mph a couple of feet away. A car is much more complicated to operate than a handgun.

If a CCW holder can carry a handgun in a Wal-Mart why not on an airplane or in a school? If someone is trying to bring down the plane I am riding in, I will take my chances with flying bullets and spent brass.

I love what Col. Jeff Cooper had to say on the subject, "there were too many cell phones and not enough handguns on those planes".

If we are qualifying people for CCW permits that we would not want to carry a handgun around our children, shame on us. JMHO

[nodaywithout]

i have never flown on an airplane so i think i will keep it that way if i can

[Bill of Rights]

I like the way you think, 45fan. :)

Blessings,
B

[MeAgain]

I stopped flying years ago

not from fear of terrorists

but from aggravation of the TSA personnel, and their "authoritarian" attitude

a lot of those security persons now have a chip on their shoulder, finally they have some "authority" in their hands, so they abuse their authority by letting passengers know, [ "Hey, I'm the one that decides if you get on this flight today" ]

[Tanzer]

I don't want to hijack the thread (no pun intended), but here's one to think about;
I went through airport security about two years ago wearing shoes that I had worn to the range (indoor range) the night before. They set off the nitro detector wand! I had some 'splainin to do, but all worked out. :P