Moving Sideways -

[Stubob]

While reading several CCW books the tactics that are covered in the books all seem to point to several important issues.

1: Try to avoid a gun fight.
2: If you can not: Move to Cover Fast
3: Move Sideways = Most shooters are right handed so moving to your right is moving to your attackers left (I am trying to validate this one).

How many of us practice anything other than just standing at the range? It would be very practical to get an Instructor and practice real world situations.

Another option is to joing a shooting club like IDPA. They have great contests for shooting while moving.

Any thoughts?

[VegasGeorge]

Stubob, you always want to move to force your opponent to track to his strong side. So, if your opponent is right handed, you want to move to your left, forcing your opponent to track to his right. At least that's the way I've always understood it.

[Bill of Rights]

I saw a video a few days ago in which the guy was promoting moving backwards on a 45 degree angle, cross-stepping to avoid tripping over stuff. I don't recall him saying which side was better, but he moved back to his right, on the 45 degree angle, putting more distance per step between him and his attacker. I don't think it really matters which way you go, as long as there are no bullets flying there. :)

Blessings,
M

[VegasGeorge]

"You may want to sidestep to one side rather than another. The reason is that when a person presents his pistol to shoot, he does so in a directional line to where he has perceived the target to be. Such a ballistic motion is nearly impossible to change and redirect midstream, and it is more difficult to redirect it to the strong side than the support side. Redirecting to the support side is more natural because it "follows" the existing motion of the draw. Redirecting to the strong side goes against that motion." "This means that if you move to the opponent's strong side and stay on the backside of the gun hand, it will be more difficult for him to "track" you with his muzzle than if you move to his support side."

Gabriel Suarez, "The Tactical Pistol", page 99.

[Stubob]

That was what I was looking at, but did not get the directions down correctly. The phrase "The backside of the pistol" is very important and can help with the movement rather than thinking "Left or Right". Thanks.

[CA CCWInstructor]

Most people shoot right to left easy cause that's the direction they read. On the other hand most people are right footed. They tend to move to their right.

I did a test years ago. Cover on you left, 5 feet away. Cover on your right 12 feet away. Almost all went to their right. That is the foot they lead with. Cover on you left is easier to shoot from IF you are a right handed shooter too.

What I teach to LEO's is shoot-move- shoot-move. Hopefully incoming rounds will go to where you were and not where you are at.

Incoming rounds do have the right-of-way.

[Stubob]

Great feed back. VegasGeorge and gang -

CC Instructor - Do you have anything written on these drills? Something that folks could practice? Without a lot of work on your end. Just checking to see if you had it handy.

[CA CCWInstructor]

Not really. I have a play book of range commands that I pull from to teach differnt classes. I pull what I need to the class I'm teaching, very low tech. It saves time.

[Stubob]

You have been teaching so long that I think you could teach in your sleep.

Ever sleep walk while teaching? :shock: :D

[CA CCWInstructor]

Not safe to do that. . . .

[nodaywithout]

Here is a video showing how to a few tactics on how to use distancing to your advantage

[youtube:7c9c5ebc65]http://www.youtube.com/v/xINrzuves3Q[/youtube:7c9c5ebc65]

and then there is this video also a good one

[youtube:7c9c5ebc65]http://www.youtube.com/v/07jnqD8wvyE[/youtube:7c9c5ebc65]

[Bill of Rights]

With all due respect, the "give them what they want" crowd is what the Brady Bunch has been telling people for years, and these days, it seems the BGs are behaving more along the lines of "Dead men tell no tales". A store clerk or mugging or rape victim can't ID his/her attacker from the autopsy table.

If they get as close as this guy did to have the gun on the end of your nose, unfortunately, they probably caught you in Condition White. I don't know about you folks, but White seems like an awfully scary place to be to me.

Note that I take nothing away from the idea of posting to help people, nor from nodaywithout's re-posting the videos here. I do think however, that my life and/or that of my family is much more important than I'm willing to trust to the good graces of some criminal puke.

Cogito, ergo porto.

Blessings,
M

[nodaywithout]

in a sense i agree with you, but this type of information can be very helpful in some cicumstances, because you will never be able to stay out of white at all times there will be times where you let your gaurd down even for a moment. unfortunatley this is a truth of life. please keep in mind that i respect you opinions and expertise for without it this site would be a lesser place, but it's just like i said no matter how hard you try condition white can be a place where we all to often slip into.

[Bill of Rights]

(nods) I can't argue that at all. I don't much like the idea, but I have to acknowledge the truth of it. Too, sometimes the puke's just going to be somewhere you had no way to expect. Sorry if I came across harshly or condescendingly.

Blessings,
M

[nodaywithout]

no worries. by the way do you mean Punk or Puke as it says?

[Bill of Rights]

no worries. by the way do you mean Punk or Puke as it says?

Either one works. They're both equally distasteful. http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd198/St-Michael/puke.gif

Blessings,
M

[Stubob]

Great smillies - :shock:

[nodaywithout]

lol

[EBDPA]

Let me just redirect the discussion back to the original question. Do we move? You bet we move... to cover if possible, but certianly off the X.

Statistics show us that as a CCW, not necessarily as a LEO since they are compelled to act in different circumstances, we will likely face our gun fight with the BG 3-7 feet away, in bad lighting and he may not be alone.

Even if we are diligent with our 'awareness' BG's sometimes get the drop on us because they have a plan and we have to react. Our first motion should be to move, as we draw. Even if it is just a step back to create distance. I teach the back 45 degrees approach in most circumstances (obviously surroundings dictate). Remember, in many circumstances, distance is your friend. We depend on our training to be better than the BG and that the farther we are away from them, the less likely they will deliver good hits.

Not all circumstances warrant moving away from the BG. If they are really within arms length, sometimes moving in is a safer and more tactical move, but these are the things we must learn in training.

It is certainly a good exercise to think through what you will do before you are in the fight.

Good luck,

[Brian@ITC]

Well... it is good to see that my video is being put to good use! Yeah, its me on the youtube video.

I favor 45 degree rearward movement whenever possible. It is not "the way" to move, but rather A WAY. Lateral movement (90 degrees) does NOT created distance quickly enough away from the attacker as my video shows. In my martial arts training we realize the risks involved with lateral movement so you have to be on your guard when doing so.

______________________
Brian K. LaMaster
President -Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC (www.right2defend.com)
Instructor - Counter Force (www.counterforceinternational.com)
"High Impact Training"

[Brian@ITC]

I disagree with moving the weapon in the manner they show in the video below mine. You should always try to move the target then the weapon so if they do happend to shoot, the target isn't where it was!
______________________
Brian K. LaMaster
President -Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC (www.right2defend.com)
Instructor - Counter Force (www.counterforceinternational.com)

[nodaywithout]

glad to see you on board welcome

[Brian@ITC]

Thanks for the welcome and I hope to chime in often.

___________________
Brian K. LaMaster
President -Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC (www.right2defend.com)
Instructor - Counter Force (www.counterforceinternational.com)

[bat47]

The best advice I've gotten and the best I would pass along is this, "The best way to win a gunfight is to not be in one." I carry everyday and I'm always acutely aware of my surroundings. I refuse to be a victim.

[VegasGeorge]

Perhaps it's just the season, but it occurs to me that the best people for moving sideways while shooting at their opponents are politicians. :roll:

[BikerRN]

Momma didn't raise me to be a bullet sponge. :)

I'm not a Trainer, nor "the sharpest pencil in the drawer," but even at a square range you can usually take one or two lateral steps as you are drawing. I do that at my local indoor range. It gets you in the habit of "moving off the X."

I prefer to go in the boonies and set up my own scenarios and targets with a safe backstop and nobody but my shooting partners around. That way we can "crtique" each others shooting and tactics. We can also add a distraction or two while someone is shooting. Firecrackers going off at your feet or somebody "slamfiring" a 12 Guage make great "distractor" when you aren't expecting them. :)

I will say this, IMHO, it's not the guns and bullets that win gunfights, it's tactics and a little bit of luck.

Biker

[Brian@ITC]

Mindset and tactics play a MUCH larger role in your survival than your shooting skills! Just sidestepping in most cases where you are going up against someone who has a gun pointed on you is not normally a good idea because it doesn't create enough distance. However, it is better than just standing still or moving straight back.

Train hard, train often, and train REALISTICALLY!!!
_______________
Brian K. LaMaster
President-Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC (www.right2defend.com)
Instructor-Counter Force (www.counterforceinternational.com)
Modern Warrior Talk (www.modernwarriortalk.com)
"High Impact Training"
“Serious tactics for serious situations!”