Team tactics

[EBDPA]

I read an article last month in USCCA magazine entitled "Its you and me against the world". The basic premis was a discussion around how any set of partners, ie. husband/wife, office/partner, roomates, domestic partners, etc., who are CCW holders, should train tactically as a team.

To at least entertain the discussion about who does what when one of the partner's alert level elevates to orange. This discussion could also include what happens when that same partner, who you are likely going to be in public with, is not a CCW holder. Does your partner know what to do, where to go, etc. if you need to respond to a threat.

My wife is not a CCW holder. We have had many scenario driven discussions about these types of questions. She quickly figured out where I want to sit in a restaurant. She sort of adopted the, "you shoot, I'll duck" approach. Does that really cut it? I thought I would open this discussion up to the forum for your input.

Have you developed a language with your partner that is beyond discussion or debate? This would be important for two CCW holders, but more important for a team that only has one CCW holder in the mix. I don't know about all of the other combinations of partners, but speaking for my wife and I, debate is often part of our communication. This could be deadly in a violent encounter.

We have adopted a code language of phrases that can be spoken in public without raising any attention. For example... " we really need to hang up the new drapes" is a phrase that we might adopt to indicate a specific action. For us... it means stand up.. now.. and head for the emergency exit. No discussion, no questions, no debate. I have made it a practice to keep cash in my pocket for dining. That is hard to do these days of plastic and debit cards but I want to be able to drop cash to cover our check if we need to make a quick exit.

As long as we are not sitting in our living room... this phrase elicits an immediate response for us. If either of us senses a problem, we don't wait.. we leave and discuss it once we are out of the surroundings and in a safe place. Better safe than sorry. Of course, the more mundane the phrase, the better chance it won't come up in a casual conversation, and the less chance that you will frighten the people in the next booth by saying something like "that parole violater might have a gun, lets leave".

This discussion could also go into knowing what each of us will do and where each of us will go in an escallating situation. Two CCW holders would approach this discussion from a different perspective. How could they maximize the tactical advantage of having two shooters?

I welcome the boards thoughts on these subjects. I would think that this discussion might make an interesting article or series of articles down the road.

[VegasGeorge]

If a husband and wife both have their CCWs and carry, I think that training as a team is good idea.

[ErnieH]

Team training is great if done right.
I just did a class for a group of bouncers and we played around with some scenarios. It was great team training. To be truely functional as a team you must train as a team, knowing what the other person is going to do, before they do it. That is how well you should know your partners. When you are working close or are in a close relationship with someone you learn to read that person and can pick up on little thing that person does or says that tell you levels are rising. Even more so when you are trusting that person and they are trusting you for the overall safety. Back when I was working in Stockton, me and my partners would alway run through little "what ifs" while on patrol. "I move left/you move right, you take point/I'll post, I make contact/you swing around the blind side." There are all kinds of things to work on to improve these skills but I don't think an open forum is the place to put these all out there.
Just like any team, you have an Alpha that seems to get the ball rolling. That is usually the person with the most experince or the most confident, this is the person that is thinking several steps ahead.
If there are two people out together and both are packing, it is a good idea to have a game plan that both know. It is easier for those of us with law enforcement and or military training to do. We have been drilled and drilled on team work. Either on the deck to move as a team or in the field to work as a team. Taught to fight as a team and how to win as a team. You are only as strong as the person next to you. So you find that the guys that pick this up naturally begin to gather together. For those of us with the training I talked about earlier, we can all remember that someone who you didn't want to be partnered with, who you didn;t want covering your 6 when the fur hit the fan.

For the civilian it is something that is new and strange. Something that is almost alien, because society has put into everyones mind that it is all about you, the individual. You can only depend on yourself, this is what today's culture teaches.

[nodaywithout]

I am glad you posted this, my roommate and I have often discussed taking some trainning for tactical defense, for the most part we thought of taking it for the experience and fun of it all. Not to mention get to use the USSA facilities here in tulsa which have a number of highly trainned instructors from both leo's and competition shooters.

[EBDPA]

I guess the point of my original post was just to get the creative juices flowing.

Most civilian armed encounters are going to happen at night and at close range. I don't know about you, but during the evenings, the most likely person to be sitting or standing at my side is my wife... who by the way is likely the only reason I would pull my weapon anyhow.

How do I make sure that I can truely protect her if we are involved in a situation that escalates to fast to flee? How do I make sure that she doesn't walk right in the middle of a tactical move that I have practiced by myself? Other than, 'hit the deck', what will be her first response if I alert her to danger, or she sees me drawing my firearm? Doesn't it make sense that I include her in my 'plan'? Should that inclusion be more than just discussing 'what if' scenarios?

If my wife was a CCW holder, I think I would want to extend that discussion to include hands on tactical training for us together.

This does not have to be at the depth that a team of LEO's would train. We are not talking about building entry and search tactics. For me, I would be happy to have my wife understand the difference between concealment and cover and know to move immediately to cover in a confrontation. I don't want her getting in the way.

Now the 'what if' scenarios that we go through certianly help to raise both of our awarenesses. I pray that we will be able to detect and evade any armed encounter, but if we can't, I want her to be an asset not a liability.

A wise man once said that liabilities in a gunfight... get you dead.

2 cents....

[ErnieH]

Ok Craig, I have been sitting here with my wife discussing this issue. And we both agree that the only way your wife could be a liability, is if she refuses to train with you and take an active participation in the whole awareness process. If you practice and explain what your doing and the why and how you are doing it, to your spouse this raises her awareness and understand. So when and if a incident ever arises, she knows what your response is and how you would move.
Truly our wives are our life partners, so why not make them are street partners. When in a situation our responses should become automatic, almost second nature. When in a confrontation with a partner, you shouldn't have to think about what your partner is doing, you know that they know what to do. This allows yourself to focus on the task at hand, safety and prevailing.
'Tis the season to teach safety and train to survive!! I also found things I will be going over with my wife. I think I have taken for granted that she knew what to do, and during this thread we have discussed a lot. I found that she had the basics but didn't know the next steps in the process.

[liquibyte]

For the civilian it is something that is new and strange. Something that is almost alien, because society has put into everyones mind that it is all about you, the individual. You can only depend on yourself, this is what today's culture teaches.

There are several things about this that pisses me off. First, stop referring to us a civilians. We are all civilians, you seperating us as something different as if you're military describes you as being better somehow. I can look up many, many instances where a "civilian" saved the unprepared butt of a "non civilian", I just watched one while typing this. Second, it is all about me. Why wouldn't it be about me, it's my ass. Look around on any forum about firearms and or LEO. You have no responsibility to me at all as a person, SCOTUS says as much. Prove me wrong on this and I'll apologize as necessary. In my opinion it's elitist views such as these that perpetuate the attitude that we shouldn't be armed because the "Police" are much better trained than the average civilian to handle a given situation. I would bet my last dollar my experience in life far betters your training to deal with a given situation in any given respect. I have been there and done that in ways most cops wouldn't know how to handle by virtue of my bad choices. The one difference is that I grew up and out of my bad habits before I died, most cops join when they are young and have foolish teachers apparently.

Now for the other half of why I started this post. My girlfriend is, as far as I can tell, anti-her-any-thing-to-with-firing-a-firearm. She won't shoot, she won't even discuss shooting, and we even now just discussed it, she won't shoot. How do you deal with that? You defend her. Tactics are as follows. If she talks about cats whatsoever, first alert. I start looking around trying to find the problem. I'm always at condition one so it would have to be behind me as the door is always front. If I talk about cats whatsoever, first alert. She now knows not to move or look. If either one of us talks about cats in any given way and then promptly follows that statement with having to go to the bathroom, I'm coming up out of my seat either drawing my gun or feigning other actions to disquise my actions. We don't have cats and that means there is violence happening quietly right now and the situation needs taking care of. To date I have had three guns pointed in my face where had I had a firearm I would have killed the individual in question and been legally justified. You may argue this point, I do not. I was there, semantics do not come into play. We know each other so well that I do not question even that I would know a look that would make me draw. If I hear of cats from her I will know.

[Stubob]

You have taken the first step that most do not ever take - A Plan!

I like the idea of having a topic that you both know means something is going down. We have practiced as a family using fake handguns and going through the house with "What If" situations. We have not taken the next step like you suggested to have the "Cat" Talk -

Good point.

[Bill of Rights]

There are several things about this that pisses me off. First, stop referring to us a civilians. We are all civilians, you seperating us as something different as if you're military

I don't know that he is not. Ernie, if in fact you are military, thank you for your service. It is appreciated.http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd198/St-Michael/USA.gif

Blessings,
B

[ErnieH]

I served in the Navy and was a Master at Arms and crossed rated to a Corpsman. I served in Afghanistan, I got around. Beyond that, I have been through military and civilian law enforcement and now work as a contract security consultant and an instructor in Firearms and Use of Force.
And as far as you being "pissed off" over being called a civilian, get over it, that's what you are.
I spent the weekend at an instructor training course and spoke with the other instructors about this issue, one of them being Craig, who started this thread. I believe we all agreed that advanced training is more readily available to LEO personal. I am not saying that the private citizens "can not" or "do not" have this training, but LEOs use their skills on a more frequently, there for becoming more proficient in these skills.
My attention was not to make anyone upset or disturb anybodies day. But simple to point out that when in the military and LEO communities you are in a constant state of training, and get paid to go through top notch training.

Also not to put a burst in anyone's bubble, don't get too cocky or confident about your skills, there is always someone better, faster or smarter, then there is just dumb luck. Remember "Pride came before the fall"

If your truly are skilled and confident in your art, you should have no problem in the comparison of the Joe Average Citizen and Military or Law Enforcement Personal. I did not compare those that are diligent in their training and make efforts to constantly improve upon that which they already know. "Knowing that you don't know everything is the first step to knowledge". I think alot of people will agree with that.

We must constantly training and hone our skill, refining to make them precious and pray that one day your life is not going to be on the line. If your life is, you know you have the proper skills to overcome.

[Bill of Rights]

ErnieH,
Again, thank you for your service. If I may add, I think the complaint he had was less being called a civilian and more the perception that you did so as a police officer, not as a military serviceman. I also have heard police refer with quasi-disdain for the "civilians", and I don't like it much. The very idea of our police being militarized is disturbing as well as vaguely frightening, because of the difference in missions. I know that you know that police, originally called "peace officers", now are "law enforcement officers", tasked to keep the peace and arrest (not normally to kill) those who violate the law. Military men and women keep the peace by the deterrent factor of their mere existence and presence, and General Norman Schwarzkopf was said (falsely) to have originated well the wartime purpose of our military when asked "What can we do about bin Laden? Can we forgive him?" His answer, at least according to Snopes, was "Forgiveness is up to God. I just hope we hurry up the meeting." (8 Feb 2003, to Tim Russert on Meet the Press)

When our police uniforms are every day looking closer to what our military wear when entering combat and their weapons likewise, yeah, I worry, too, and I'll take exception to police who step over that line.

Blessings,
B

[Stubob]

Lets get back to Team tactics.

There are changes in the world and we need to rely on each other civilians, law enforcment or military. We are United States Citizens.

We are working on a report for a training facility that has lots of swat type classes for the civilians and people are paying the money and taking the clases. We all can agree that people who train regardless of what their vocation are more prepared.

Great points but lets get back to Team Tactics on this thread. Great topic that needs help and discovery.

Thank you all.

[ErnieH]

I agree with Stubob, we are way off were this thread started. Key word in Team tactics is TRAINING, Mental and Physical. Key words are great!! Having a plan is BIG!! Everyone involved being involved in the plan. Get out there and Train, Train and Train some more, there can never be enough. You only get out of something, what you put into it.

[Raccoon]

Most civilian armed encounters are going to happen at night and at close range. I don't know about you, but during the evenings, the most likely person to be sitting or standing at my side is my wife... who by the way is likely the only reason I would pull my weapon anyhow.

Man, she must *REALLY* piss you off. . . .

[EBDPA]

Cute Racoon! I like your sense of humor.. and yes, I admit, sometimes I am tempted... but she has a combo to the gun safe too.. so there is a level playing field.

Back to topic. I am less interested in whether you agree with the idea of Team Tactics.... I am more interested in those who have gone through the mental excersize with their partner. What thoughts have you had. Give examples of how you have worked out the idea. What code words or phrases do you use and when do you have those conversations?

Are our partners trained in the levels of mental awareness so they can be a second set of eyes? What other 'training' excersizes have you used.. share with the community so that the exchange of ideas can benefit all.

my 1..2..2 1/2... I guess 3 cents now...

:lol:

[DAN]

Great subject!!!
From my perspective there is a huge difference between a normal civilian and a high-risk experienced mindset in lethal confrontations. That difference is set deep in your subconcious to be retrieved without thinking. This is refered to as a BLINK. A BLINK is part of the human primal memory.
Any individual involved with training under stress can reach this level but it can only be filed in your memory by stress, a high level of stress. When we were hunter gatherers we gained these memories at a young age or we were dead.
People in high risk occupations can gain many of these memories to be called upon when needed. For a "civilian" the normal everyday person, these memories are not there to be called upon.

Ernie is this what you have experienced??

Team training is different than training with a partner. In a team you have many different relationships to deal with and this influences team dynamics and makes a team functional or disfunctional.

With a partner, domestic or business the relationship is usually pretty clear. Having a tactical plan like Craig brought up is a must!!! It may start out with a phrase or a word but what one should shoot for is a look, a gesture or a specific movement. I work with training high risk teams and individuals and from my experience a real partnership or a cohesive team needs no words before action is taken. In many incidents words means dead.
DAN

[ErnieH]

You hit the nail right on the head, Dan. I couldn't agree anymore with that. Stress test, fuse those skills into you, making it your responses automatic. Building the "muscle memory"
There is a differnce in mindsets in these types of trainings and the muscle memory involved in each type of these training. Team training you have other elements involved. Partner training you have a plan and hopefully the skills and knowlede needed to overcome.
I also agree a word is sometimes to much of a delay and can and will get you pushing up daisies. When you are in that type of relationship, with a domestic of work partner you begin to not only understand the person but understand their body language. This is important!

[nodaywithout]

My roommate and U will shut the tv off now and again, and talk for hours often about what would you do in situation a b c ..................for example him and i have known each other for many many years and we can look at each other in a certain way and go into action, know we have not been through trainning, but we have talked over several situations and have an idea of what would work and what would not.

Now the next step is to actually go through trainning

[DAN]

Nodaywithout, great start, going over what ifs with a partner. If you do start to train together You can start with Airsoft replical pistols and practice in the house garage or anywhere, At self defense range good airsoft pistols are deadly accurate and the slide action, safeties and fieldstriping is identical. they come in many configurations.

There is a training philosophy that I use called crawl, walk, run. This is essential for a team or working with a partner.

Also remember if you get involved with an incident together you may be considered as liable as your partner.

DAN