"Lord why haven't I got more ammunition?"

[Stubob]

We have seen several church attacks over the years and they are only going to get worse. The newest in Mo. If you have a CCW permit and your state allows carrying in a church you may want to consider carrying and keeping more ammunition with you. This article describes terrorist in the church and what the person could have done with more ammunition.

Here is part of the text -
A chaotic scene unfolded before us. Grenades were exploding in flashes of light. Pews shattered under the blasts, sending splinters flying through the air. An automatic assault rifle was being fired and was fast ripping the pews – and whoever, whatever was in its trajectory – to pieces. We were being attacked.

Instinctively, I knelt down behind the bench in front of me and pulled out my .38 Special snub-nosed revolver, which I always carried with me.

The congregation had thrown themselves down – in order to protect themselves as far as possible from the deluge of flying bullets and shrapnel. By God's grace, the view of the terrorists from my seat, fourth row from the back of the church, was perfect. The building was built like a cinema with the floor sloping towards the stage in front. So without any hesitation, I knelt and aimed, firing two shots at the attackers. This appeared ineffective, as my position was too far from my targets to take precise aim with a snub-nosed revolver. I had to get closer to the terrorists.

So I started moving to the end of the pew on my haunches and leopard crawled the rest of the way when I realised that my position was too high up. The only way I could stop their vicious attack, was to try and move in behind them and then shoot them in the back at close range.

I sprinted to the back door of the church, pushing a lady out of the way, so that I could kick the door open and not be hindered as I sought to get behind the gunmen to neutralise their attack.

As I desperately rounded the corner of the building, outside in the parking area, I saw a man standing next to what was the "getaway" car. Resting on his hip was his automatic rifle. The man was looking in the direction of the door through which they had launched their attack.

I stepped back behind the corner of the wall and prepared to blast the last of my firepower. I strode out in full view of the terrorist and shot my last three rounds. By this time, the others were already in the car. My target jumped into the vehicle and the driver sped away immediately, leaving behind the acrid stench of burning tyres and exhaust fumes.

I remember thinking, "Lord why haven't I got more ammunition?"





http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57136

[VegasGeorge]

Odd that you should post this. I have specifically wondered about taking my pistol with me to church. So far, I've left it home. That's the only place I go without it. Yet, when I look at the history of armed assaults, I realize that church is one of the high risk places I regularly visit. I think I will change my habit (no pun intended :lol: ).

I guess one of my fears is that should it become known that I'm armed, the church officers would tell me to stop. Then, I would have to find another church, which I don't want to do.

[Clark]

Arkansas does not allow for guns to be carried in churches. I believe that Nevada does allow carrying in a church. I will nose around later to verify.

And you would be surprised how many of my friends at church are coming to classes and carrying. I do not believe how many former anti-gun folks are coming out of the woodwork and asking for training and how to buy guns.

The best part about that is they are asking for training and not just running out and buying a handgun to protect themselves.

[Raccoon]

I think that if you go talk to the pastor or security folks and let them know that as a retired judge, you feel it is your duty to help protect the congregation, they might say O.K. Especially if there are armed security guards there. Get ot know the main security guard and let him know who you are and they will probably welcome your help. I attend a church that has over 5000 members. The main guard is a retired NY HYPO, and he welcomes the help. He just wants to know that you are qualified and safe.

And of course, none of my friends even know. . . . and if they did, I'm covered.

[VegasGeorge]

Clark, no need to "nose around." Just refer to the Nevada Administrative Code, link posted in our Nevada State Law section. Churches are not mentioned in the section that excludes certain venues from right to carry.

Interesting that Arkansas excludes churches. I wonder how that came to be? It seems to me that would start to infringe on the separation of church and state. I'm thinking along the lines of "right to freedom of religion," "right to bear arms," but no "right to bear arms while exercising right to freedom of religion." It hardly makes sense.

Say, I've got an idea that would drive the libs nuts. Why not start a conservative (Bible based) Christian denomination that includes the right to bear arms as one of its articles of faith and practice? If those Indian tribes can use peyote in their religious rituals, surely Arkansans can carry weapons to church.

PS: Raccoon, I am a retired California lawyer, not a judge. I was never interested in being a judge, too much like a regular job. :lol: My church is a LOT smaller than yours. I think I'll just keep the whole CCW thing quiet. At least until I better understand their thinking about the issue. I'm still pretty new there.

[Clark]

VegasGeorge - Your posts are looking like you know your stuff. Here is a chuch that we may want to start....... :D

Raccoon - Thanks for your comments as well.

http://carryconcealed.net/images/uploaded/wolvertoon122499.gif

[VegasGeorge]

Well, uh ...that does appear to be a bit over the top. But, I like it! :lol:

[Clark]

My pastor did not like it either.....He did indicate that he liked off duty cops and instructors hanging around the church, and especially if something bad were to happen. :)

[Genghis77]

Just a note but most of the church murders I have heard of in recent years have been by poison. Might want to skip the after sermon brunch or ice cream social.

[nodaywithout]

you don't have enough ammo because i shot allot lol

[BiblicalFirst]

One Man's Journey From Potential Victim To Armed Hero (http://www.gunowners.org/sk0103.htm) from Gun Owner's of America

This is the same story, but adds the details about the man who defended himself. He went from an ex-solder who never carried, to a civilian who carried everywhere. How? This article shares the process he went through, which brought him, as a Christian, to the conclusion that it is Biblical to defend the innocent. (An idea which too many Christians fail to grasp. :()

[pioneer461]

It's amazing that some folks think that somehow a church is a crime free zone, where everyone is safe. That notion is very naive and assumes that people bent on violence will somehow respect the sanctuary of a church. It's a very nice, feel good notion, but it isn't based in reality.

Very often in violent domestic relationships, be they marriages or shack-ups, the abused partner often seeks help in church. The mind set of the abusers is typically one of; "If I can't have her, then no one will have her." "EVER." With the abused partner now a member of a church, the abuser usually has no difficulty finding out in which church they can be found. A simple surveillance by the abuser will tell him (usually him) when she is inside. Because churches are by tradition and ignorance, "gun free zones," the abuser can be fairly certain he will meet no resistance in his attempt to "get her" and anyone who helps her.

Besides domestic abuse, there are anti-Christian zealots, mentally deranged people who "blame God" for all of their troubles, other so-called "Christians" who are so extreme in their beliefs, they feel a need to eliminate all non-believers or corrupters of the "true faith." Not so much in the US (yet), but in other countries where members of other faiths become radical and believe it is their mission to kill all non-believers.

There are no safe places, including churches or synagogues. The following web site lists some real life examples.
http://www.safeatchurch.com/examples.asp (http://www.safeatchurch.com/examples.asp)

A colleague of mine, a retired police officer, is very active in his church, which is an inner-city, mostly Black, Christian church. The pastor has appointed my friend as a "Security Minister." The church sponsored him and two others to attend a training seminar in Houston Texas, specifically geared for armed security officers of churches. Their church now has an active, armed security staff, that has recruited off duty police officers to participate.
http://www.churchsecurityconference.com/?gclid=COfmsZyazZcCFRxNagodcEZa1g (http://www.churchsecurityconference.com/?gclid=COfmsZyazZcCFRxNagodcEZa1g)

Churches are beginning to realize that they are ministering to their flocks in a secular world, where criminals or other hateful people do not respect their sanctity. Some pastors are beginning to ignore the political correctness of forbidding armed parishioners. We gunners like to think of ourselves as sheep dogs, protecting the flock. Ministers often refer to members of their churches as their "flock." It should be a no brainer.

Although widely unknown, do you know that Dr. Martin Luther King had armed members of his church guarding him? They didn't want it publicly known because it kind of contradicts the message of "non violence." They were a branch of Deacons For Defense, an organization of Black Christians, mostly WW2 and Korean War vets, who realized during the 1950's and 1960's that they were on their own and could not rely upon government for protection from the Ku Klux Klan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacons_for_Defense_and_Justice
A movie was made about them, http://www.amazon.com/Deacons-Defense-Forest-Whitaker/dp/B0000C2IR6

I've always carried in church. If done properly, no one will ever know, unless you have to use it. Since none of us can possibly know the will of God, who's to deny that the Lord placed you there to protect His church?

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/pioneer461/police.png

[mp3mogul]

You can never have enough ammo, especially with the state the world is in.

[junglebob]

Pioneer461, Your post got me to thinking if the puritans would have approved of concealed carry of firearms in church. They might not have.

Were puritan churches Gun Free Zones? Well no. In fact you were expected to come to church with your musket. Imagine being a puritan and arriving for worship unarmed. The pastor might say "I'm sorry you'll have to go home and get your musket, this is not a gun free zone."

I think it was common in years past to expect someone carrying a firearm to carry it in the open, which is why I said they might not have approved of concealed carry. I came across a lot of links to articles on the subject Should Christians Bear Arms. The website is that of a conservative presbyterian minister in the Presbyterian Church in America, not to be confused with the liberal Presbyterian Church in the U.S. (which has some liberal and anti-self defense stands) The website is www.mouseguns.com/cba.htm and he has a whole page of links mentioned is "The Story of Charl Van Wyk which is the "One Man's Journey" that BiblicalFirst mentioned. That page of links will give a lot of defense for carrying by Christians and self defense. There is one link Pistol Packing Preachers, at www.pistolpackingpreachers.us (click on enter by the straight and narrow way) where one preacher George Walker admits to carrying at church and another David Carrick mentions having a CCW permit. There are links to 6 others on the page, do they carry discreetly and church and keep it to themselves? Who knows concealed is concealed. There is a link at the bottom of the page to a discussion on a forum about Churches That Prohibit Weapons.

[Clark]

Our classes have been filled with mostly church members in our surrounding area. My last CCW class had 8 out of 11 people from my church. I even have several pastors wanting to take private classes.

Terrorists or wackos should not always think that a church is a "safe" place for them to shoot up.

I have a standing invitation with anyone in my church to go to the range and practice.

[ExSniper]

My last two classes were primarily two church groups, including several associate pastors. I always carry to church and have at least one spare magazine with me. My pastor and a few of the staff know what I do for a living and know that I "practice what I preach" while I am at church.

[junglebob]

Talking about carry in churches reminds me of something that happened last year in a church here in Southern Illinois. Two women where badly beaten at a church when two guys broke in to rob it. This being the "right denied state" of Illinois, neither woman was carrying a handgun. One of them could have been had she not been in Illinois as she had a non-resident LTC from another state. Fortunately they did catch the two guys.

[tuna]

I can't understand the philosophy of why someone WOULDN'T carry in church. They have to be the most untactical places you can put yourself. You're probably in the middle of a row of seats, surrounded by others, multiple entrys to the place, constant movement behind you and you're supposed to be focused on the sermon in front of you.

Peter carried a sword when he was with Jesus. I'm pretty sure He would have told Peter, "You're with me, you can leave that extra 5 pounds of metal behind" if He didn't approve.