Shots fired, eight killed.

[Bill of Rights]

I just read a news story, such as it was, that the Westroads Mall, in Omaha, NE, just had a gunman enter and fire multiple gunshots, killing at least eight people. The story is sketchy in details at this point, but I'm going to make a couple of predictions:

1) The mall was a "gun free zone".
2) The criminal, therefore, was the only one armed.
3) The criminal will not be the holder of a conceal-carry permit.
4) The gun(s) may or may not have been unlawfully obtained.

Anyone want to place bets on these? (no fair doing so after more info is made available!)

Link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071205/ap_on_re_us/mall_shooting
(story below)

Blessings,
B

Gunman kills at least 8 at Omaha mall By OSKAR GARCIA, Associated Press Writer


A man with a rifle opened fire at a busy shopping mall Wednesday, killing eight people before taking his own life. Five more people were wounded, two critically.

Shoppers and employees ran screaming through the mall and barricaded themselves in dressing rooms after hearing gunfire. The gunman was found dead on the third floor of the Von Maur department store.

Kevin Kleine, 29, who was shopping with her 4-year-old daughter, said she hid in a dressing room with four other shoppers and an employee.

"My knees rocked. I didn't know what to do, so I just ran with everybody else," Kleine said.

Keith Fidler, a Von Maur employee, said he heard a burst of five to six shots followed by 15 to 20 more rounds. Fidler said he huddled in the corner of the men's clothing department with about a dozen other employees until police yelled to get out of the store.

A witness, Shawn Vidlak, said he heard four or five rapid shots "like a nail gun." At first he thought it was noise from construction work going on at the mall.

"People started screaming about gunshots," Vidlak said. "I grabbed my wife and kids we got out of there as fast as we could."

Shortly after the shooting, a group of shoppers came out of the building with their hands raised. Some were still holding shopping bags.

President Bush was in town Wednesday for a fundraiser in Omaha, but left about an hour before the shooting.

The sprawling, three-level mall has more than 135 stores and restaurants, according to the Web site for General Growth Properties, the manager of the mall. It gets 14.5 million visitors every year, according to the Web site.

___

Associated Press writers Anna Jo Bratton, Josh Funk and Eric Olson contributed to this report.

[Bill of Rights]

Follow up: The criminal shooter was 20 years old and had mental problems, we are told. Whether he had been diagnosed or not is unknown, but the report I read said that he was not medicated for his "problems", so I would guess that he was not diagnosed. He definitely was not presently confined to a mental facility at the time of his crime.

Regardless, his age alone was enough to prove me correct that he was not a holder of a permit.
Weapon: SKS
Police response: Approximately six minutes.

Note that there was plenty of time for several people to call 911 on cell phones. Had they had more effective tools, maybe there would only be two dead: The first victim and the criminal.

One other point: His suicide note included a phrase to the effect of, "now I'll be famous", and sure enough, CNN and even Fox News are guaranteeing him that fame. They need to adopt a policy that if someone does something like this, not only do they not become famous but their name and face never make mass-media from that day forward-no matter who they are. In the event that it's unavoidable, such as a President or Governor or the like, their name is never tied to the deed. If mass murderers knew that they faced a likelihood of an armed response and perpetual anonymity in the form of "an unnamed person attempted to incite terror at the Westroads mall in Omaha, NE today, but was stopped by Mr. John P. Ryan, a stockbroker who was there shopping for Christmas presents for his wife and children...", I think we would see these events much less frequently.

That's how I see it.

Blessings,
B

[VegasGeorge]

As long as we continue to maintain a society that shifts all responsibilities to government agencies, and holds no person accountable, we are going to continue seeing events like this. You can ask: "Where were this kid's parents, relatives, adult friends, teachers, coaches, ministers, doctors, counselors, and neighbors?", until you're blue in the face. It doesn't matter, because none of them can be held accountable. In fact, the way we have it set up, they would be in trouble with the law if they tried to intervene. So, unless, and until we have a complete revolution in the way we regulate our society, there is really only one answer to the problem. We wait until the crazy kid starts shooting, and then we either kill him, or wait for him to run out of ammo.

Personally, I'm for killing him. But that doesn't mean I don't recognize the tragedy of it all.

[pioneer461]

Early reports indicate the Omaha Mall shooter was a screwed up 19 year old. He had been “kicked out” by his parents, so a well intentioned, but niave (read liberal) mother of a friend gave him shelter, so she could “help” him. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve dealt with similar situations, which almost always end in tragedy, although usually not on such a grand scale.

The weapon is being reported as an “AK47,” but we shall see what it actually turns out to be. The rifle was stolen from his step-father (the same one who kicked him out?), which is another argument for every gun owner having a gun safe. At least the chief didn't call it an "assault weapon." Yet.

The kid was a loser, with a drug and alcohol problem, who’s parents had given up on him. He is a school drop-out who couldn’t maintain a job or personal relationships. The Omaha police chief said it also appears the mall was chosen because it's a large public place where he'd get a lot of attention. In one of his notes, he wrote, “I'm a piece of shit and now I'm going to be famous.”

As we learn more, the media will eventually come around to focusing on the evil gun, and renew the clarion call for more gun “control.” The Second Amendment will no doubt come under renewed attack, but given the fact that this punk shot up the mall in order to become famous, like Klebold & Harris, I wonder if the First Amendment free press clause come under attack too? Somehow I don’t think so.

I wonder if Westroads Mall is a gun free zone?

[junglebob]

I was wondering myself if that mall was a "victim zone" or "criminal protection zone"(CPZ)? I know that mall in Utah where the last masacre occured, or at least the last major one, was a CPZ! I wonder if that one still is?

[Rentiers]

According to this story by John Lott, the mall in question was posted against concealed carry of handguns.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315563,00.html

Bill

[junglebob]

A guy from Chicago made a post on the Illinoiscarry.com forum about the Omaha Mall Massacre he said that a Nebraska CC site said their were several permit holders in the mall. One fellow said he would have had a clean shot at the shooter except for the fact that he was not carrying his handgun. He said "I just wanted everyone to know that I was in the store at 1:35 pm on the third floor by customer service, and saw the gunman in action. Close enough to see the shell casings ejecting."

With all the "in depth reporting" the media does I bet we never hear about this.

The Chicago guy was in the mall at the time, I'll let you know if he posts about what he saw.

[nodaywithout]

Man those with ccw permit should be ticked

[Raccoon]

Sounds like someone I would want to have testify if I were a family member of a victim and I was suing the mall for failure to protect because they posted the no carry signs, and thus bore the whole responsibility of making sure all patrons were safe. . . .

Isnt this what was the subject of the shooting in Texas at the steakhouse?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

[junglebob]

I understand that Ohio does not make businesses liable it there is a shooting by someone with a carry permit. I also understand there is liabilty for those businesses the post NO GUNS ALLOWED. Are there other states like this? Suing businesses like that Omaha mall that post may be a good way to limit these "Criminal Protection Zones" (CPZ). Maybe someone could even go after the police department when they go around offering NO GUNS signs when concealed carry passes.

[larryarnold]

Man those with ccw permit should be ticked

They should be shopping for a lawyer.

This is why, on the rare occasions when I'm forced to enter a no-CHL area, I wear my empty holster to show what could have been.

BTW, news reports said the mall had several security guards, but they weren't armed either.

[Bill of Rights]

BTW, news reports said the mall had several security guards, but they weren't armed either.

##############http://www.policecatalog.com/osc/images/71116-xl.jpg

'Nuff said.

Blessings,
B

[QNman]

If I hear the words "assault rifle" associated with this story just one more time...

I also saw a news article that stated that they were "still not sure at this time whether or not the assault rifle had been obtained legally" by the stepfather.

Huh?

It's just a matter of "when" (not "if") the media turns this into another "evil gun is responsible" scenario. Too bad they won't get it right that the whole purpose for this whack job going on a shooting spree was to garner nationwide media attention (which he got).

IOW, it isn't the "evil" guns fault... it's the dang psycho's fault. And if there is a contributor, it's the media, not the gun.

[Bill of Rights]

If I hear the words "assault rifle" associated with this story just one more time...

I also saw a news article that stated that they were "still not sure at this time whether or not the assault rifle had been obtained legally" by the stepfather.

Huh?

It's just a matter of "when" (not "if") the media turns this into another "evil gun is responsible" scenario. Too bad they won't get it right that the whole purpose for this whack job going on a shooting spree was to garner nationwide media attention (which he got).

IOW, it isn't the "evil" guns fault... it's the dang psycho's fault. And if there is a contributor, it's the media, not the gun.

Correct, QNMan, and I've said for a while now that we citizens as well as our "news" outlets need to make a policy that once someone commits a crime like this, his name is never spoken again, certainly not on the news.

Everyone can name the VA Tech killer, the guy from OK City, the one that used to eat his victims (no, not Hannibal Lecter), and probably the main guy from 9/11, not to mention the guy in California with the swastika on his head. Most of you probably thought at least 4 of those names just now.

How many of us can name 4 of even the last twenty winners of the Nobel Peace Prize?

Further, it's a semi-auto rifle, but even saying that, the media has the public so conditioned that "semi-auto" means the same thing as NFA, such that they hear of a semi-automatic handgun and they think Glock 18.

Lastly, you commented about it being the "evil guns' fault"... One of my favorite links for this claim is http://www.roughwheelers.com/montego/gun_cam.html

Thanks for writing.

Blessings,
B

[larryarnold]

Correct, QNMan, and I've said for a while now that we citizens as well as our "news" outlets need to make a policy that once someone commits a crime like this, his name is never spoken again, certainly not on the news.

Except everyone would be on the internet trying to discover the "secret identity," thus creating the buzz you want to avoid. People see a wreck, they stop and look.

OTOH we could use a lot more stories like this one, at http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html,that focuses on the lady that stopped the BG in the New Mexico church shooting.

Yup. Lady. "Volunteer security guard." The BG entered a church just letting out, hundreds of targets, intermediate power semiauto rifle, and got nailed so fast he never had a chance to shoot anyone. (He shot two teenage girls and their father in the parking lot.)

The church set up the security in the 12 hours after the first shooting. According to CNN:Assam was one of about a dozen volunteer security guards at the church, half of whom are armed, Boyd said. The guards are licensed, trained and screened, and are church members, not "mercenaries," he said.

What do you want to bet the "license" was a CHL?

[Bill of Rights]

Correct, QNMan, and I've said for a while now that we citizens as well as our "news" outlets need to make a policy that once someone commits a crime like this, his name is never spoken again, certainly not on the news.

Except everyone would be on the internet trying to discover the "secret identity," thus creating the buzz you want to avoid. People see a wreck, they stop and look.

OTOH we could use a lot more stories like this one, at http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html,that focuses on the lady that stopped the BG in the New Mexico church shooting.

Yup. Lady. "Volunteer security guard." The BG entered a church just letting out, hundreds of targets, intermediate power semiauto rifle, and got nailed so fast he never had a chance to shoot anyone. (He shot two teenage girls and their father in the parking lot.)

The church set up the security in the 12 hours after the first shooting. According to CNN:Assam was one of about a dozen volunteer security guards at the church, half of whom are armed, Boyd said. The guards are licensed, trained and screened, and are church members, not "mercenaries," he said.

What do you want to bet the "license" was a CHL?

No bet, Larry. Additionally, since the church is also a "missionary training center", they may qualify as a "seminary", which would prohibit carry in CO except by security or LEOs, so I'm betting a few of them worked up a method to call them "security", without uniforms, pay, or any duties but to be there and be ready in the event of someone trying to carry out a threat against someone there- in essence, they get told they can carry to church, to which they're going anyway, and all they have to do is keep their eyes open and if necessary, their gun hands free. It would not surprise me if most of the congregation did not know who was or was not "security".

As to people scouring the 'net for the secret identity... you can't find what ain't there. It would take a concerted effort on the part of Fox and CNN and the rest of the major news outlets and an industry-wide decision that as of today(whichever day it is) no further mass-murderers will be named in public news broadcasts, however, the person who stops them, such as Ms. Jeanne Assam of Colorado Springs, CO, will be held up for public praise, and any crime against her from that day forward will be "stepped up" in penalty. (yeah, the last would require legislative change, I know.)

It's a change of mindset. Change the attitudes and tell people she's a true heroine, they'll start believing it because it's true, and suddenly, people don't really care any more about the slimeball she stopped. Part of this would be because they have someone to look at-the hero/heroine, not the perp. Would you rather look at fine art or a pile of $#!t, y'know? :wink:

It's not something that can happen immediately, but I think it's possible, if the media can be convinced as a whole to cooperate.

Blessings,
B

[pioneer461]

"What do you want to bet the "license" was a CHL?"

Most states require security officers to be licensed by the state police certification board, commonly known as "POST," or something similar. Armed officers are required to have a higher standard of training and experience than unarmed.

[larryarnold]

"What do you want to bet the "license" was a CHL?"

Most states require security officers to be licensed by the state police certification board, commonly known as "POST," or something similar. Armed officers are required to have a higher standard of training and experience than unarmed.

All true, same here in Texas. I just don't see a church congregation getting half a dozen people so certified in 12 hours. I can see a church coming up with that many CHL members. Mine certainly could, I've trained more than that.

Additionally, since the church is also a "missionary training center",

I think the training center was at a separate site, where the first shooting occurred.

[Bill of Rights]

I might be wrong. I thought they had a small MTC office in the megachurch. I read one article that said they initially developed their "volunteer security" force a year ago when the whole thing with their church founder (Haggard?) and various church staff members were getting death threats. Then when the issue came up from the first shooting, they ramped that back up so that the people were there during the second shooting. This doesn't say that they weren't just CCW citizens, as I imagine they truly were, but they have had a longer time to develop the force than just 12 hours. Additionally, I would wonder if, because they're unpaid, they perhaps don't fall under the same standard as paid security?

Regardless of all the details, the long and short of it is that the murderer demonstrated violent intent, was ordered to drop his weapon, refused and shot at Ms. Assam and earned himself a one-way ticket to the afterlife.

Cogito, ergo porto.

Blessings,
B

[junglebob]

Given the anti gun mentality of most of the main stream media, getting them to give positive input to an ordinary citizen stopping a crime with a handgun isn't going to be easy.

I was listening to the Neal Boortz radio program today and he was talking about Ms. Assum and very positively about firearms. He did mention an interesting incident in Naples Florida at a "Big Box" store. He said that a store employee stopped a man who was shop lifting and they guy pulled out a knife and stabbed him. Then another employee grabbed him and ended up on the floor with him over him ready to stab him. A woman pulls a handgun out of her purse and holds it to the shop lifters head and says "Drop the knife or I'll blow your brains out", he did as requested. A reporter was interviewing a clueless shopper about the incident and the shopper says "I can't believe that woman is allowed to carry a gun around in her purse like that!"

[Bill of Rights]

Did anyone bother to interview the guy who was almost stabbed when Ms. Clueless offered her words of wisdom? I'm guessing his sentiment would have been something on the order of "I'm da*n glad she does! You'd rather see my guts pouring out on the floor?"

I think, given my own mindset, that God forbid I ever have to do it, my answer to such a person will likely be, "I'm not a local police officer, but I'm enforcing two very old laws.

Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not murder.

and Madame, you have the right to keep breathing because of people like me who do likewise."

(of course, in the stress of the moment, that will probably be condensed down to "F*** you, you brainless b***h".) http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd198/St-Michael/shrug2.gif


Blessings,
B

[QNman]

Except everyone would be on the internet trying to discover the "secret identity," thus creating the buzz you want to avoid. People see a wreck, they stop and look.

OTOH we could use a lot more stories like this one, at http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html,that focuses on the lady that stopped the BG in the New Mexico church shooting...
True... however, I guess to me the answer isn't even NEVER mention their names... just don't mention it for 8 straight days then on weekely specials for the next two years. Mention it as part of the original newscast if you must, then MOVE ON!!

And yes, we COULD use more stories like that. But of course, that one only made the local papers. No Fox News, no CNN...