Stopping Power of 9mm

[Judge Dread]

It has been suggested to me by people who should know that the 9mm is not preferred for concealed carry because it is lacking in "stopping power." Yet, the nut job in Virginia used a 9mm with ruthless efficiency. :cry:

What is the story on the 9mm? Is it adequate for CC or not?

The answer to this question is important. After Va Tech, having CC handguns with adequate firepower appears essential in this society. No place is immune from the truly dangerous who wish to do harm with or without cause.

[doorgunner]

This is a great topic of discussion. The Virginia Tech gun man used 9 mm and 22 LR. In a Blog Posted on carryconcealed.net on just before this horrific incident was the discussion was about size matters. Clark indicated that the 22LR is a deadly round. It is better to have well placed shots of 9mm than poorly placed shots or .45 caliber. The higher caliber bullet will have greater recoil and therefore giving the untrained shooter more trouble. While we were not in the schoolrooms, it appears that people were stunned and did not even fight back. The innocent victims were not drug-crazed murders or rapists that can take 4 or 5 shots from a small caliber bullet and still keep fighting. I have always felt that it is best to shoot the highest caliber bullet that the person carrying the side arm can shoot safely. If that is only a 9mm, then carry it.

The key is to practice and seek advice from friends that can help. I started out on a 9mm and went to a .45 after years of practice. It is ok to have more that one gun depending on your circumstances. I would rather have a larger caliber when facing gang members or wild animals and a 9 mm when I do not want the gun to be seen.

DG. 8)

[VegasGeorge]

I've always believed that the first priority is shot placement. Only when you hit your target does caliber or the type of round count for anything. So, I would say that finding a gun, caliber, and loading that works comfortably and reliably for you is the way to go. It's much better to be a good shot with a 9 mm than a poor shot with a 45 cal. In my case, I visited several local indoor ranges that rent guns, and tried out a lot of different weapons before making my choice. I shot 38 cal, 9 mm, and 45 cal pistols. I picked the gun that gave me the best consistent target results.

[Clark]

The marines have gone away from the .9mm and handed everyone M4 Carbines. The .9 did not work in combat. We are testing some new rounds soon that claim to work. This may change the forumla that we have. Carry the biggest round that you can safely shoot while incontrol. Having new technology in a .9mm may change that rule. :)

[Raccoon]

I think it is kind of like asking what food is the best. Different rounds work for different things. And then we have the ball rounds and the hydra shocks and the hollow points, supersonic and subsonic velocities and various grains of powder, etc. I think you have to consider what you want it to do. Gang members carry 22's and 25 calibers because they tend to go in and tumble around causing lots of damage. But the placement is important. You need to consider what you want to do with it. Head shots are different from center mast shots and if you think he is wearing a vest, then that changes things too. A higher power round might go through the suspect, and strike an innocent behind them. That is partly why police departments use hollow points. So when the bullet enters, it collapses, and fragments and causes the most damage without coming back out and possibly hurting someone nearby. In a crowded courtroom or hallway with other people, a bullet that will go in and do as much damage to stop the assault, but minimize the collateral damage is the most desireable. Now shooting through car doors or solid wood doors might need a shotgun slug. . . . oh no, I guess I just confused the situation more. . . .

[DAN]

I agree with the drift of the replies. The right tool for the right job.

If you are not killing the hordes of Zulus, Taliban at 500 yards or Terminators then a 9mm is an adequate round.

In the hands of a trained professional who takes protection as life or death then any firearm will do.

It all depends on the intent, your focus and what you may encounter. What is the bottom line in a lethal encounter?
You win!!!

If you are skilled enough to be able to deliver eye shots at multiple moving targets in fractions of a second then a 22 rimfire would work fine.

If your are protecting yourself from bears on Kodiac Island, a 22 probably is not the best choice.

Arm and train yourself to meet your needs not someones opinion on what YOU need or what the fads are. This is serious business. Take it serious or don't carry.

DAN

[VegasGeorge]

I have a number of friends who carry 9mm pistols. Frankly, I think their reasoning is faulty. At least, it seems that way to me. I have the impression that one big reason they chose the 9mm is for the relatively cheap ammo. That makes some sense on the practice range, but seems dangerously irrelevant to me in terms of choosing a weapon for personal protection. Another reason given is the larger capacity magazines available for the 9mm pistols compared to the larger calibers. That approaches making sense from the personal protection standpoint (particularly in view of their marksmanship :lol: ). Still, assuming one is going to hit the target sometime in the first 6 or 7 shots, the larger capacity magazine isn't an overly persuasive reason for choosing the 9mm. Another reason I've heard is that the Army has gone to 9mm. Well, so what?

I still say that it's shot placement that counts. Someone who's deadly accurate with a 22. is better protected than someone shooting wildly off target with a 45. I think a person should carry the largest caliber handgun that they can comfortably and accurately shoot.

[EddieMossberg]

I think 9mm is adequate for CCW, with a good high quality round. I use 9mm for my main CCW gun. I choose this caliber for CCW because I'm the most accurate with it over any other caliber I use. It's just the easiest for me to land quick shots with. I'm confident that my +p 9mm ammo is "enough".

That being said, I enjoy my .45 and 10mm pistols as much as anybody.

[VegasGeorge]

I choose this caliber for CCW because I'm the most accurate with it over any other caliber I use.

Yes! That's it, exactly. :D

[Clark]

I agree with all of your posts. We have used the phrase: Use the highest caliber gun you can safely control.

Well there is some ammunition at Extremeshock that we are getting in for tests. From what I have seen in the pictures, it looks like it will change what I have been recommending all of these years. The 9mm looks to be more devastating that regular .40 or .45 ammunition.

We have representatives from several law enforcement areas, judges and other CCW instructors running this test. With the help from Extremeshock we hope to show that even a 9mm had more stopping power than can believed.

We will be providing the data and to our contributors sending out for their opinions as well.

I also liked Dan's comment : "This is serious business. Take it serious or don't carry."

You can check out some of their stuff at Extremeshock.net. :shock:

[Clark]

The Enhanced Penetration Round (EPR) was engineered for applications where greater penetration is a must. The EPR has greater terminal success through glass, light sheet metal, (such as automobile sheet metal), and wood. This round has the ability to penetrate heavy skin, dense bone, and then fragment once inside the softer tissue of the target. The deep penetrating characteristics of the EPR make it the ideal round for street duty officers, as well as, serious handgun hunters. This round will also fragment on any surface that would cause a lead bullet to ricochet.

50 Rounds per Box Price: $74.54
http://www.extremeshockammo.net/Images/prod_images/9mm_epr.jpg

[VegasGeorge]

It has been suggested to me by people who should know that the 9mm is not preferred for concealed carry because it is lacking in "stopping power." Yet, the nut job in Virginia used a 9mm with ruthless efficiency.

One point here, I haven't heard anything about the Virginia shooter meeting with any resistance. Consequently, I've been assuming that the victims were passive. If that's the case, "stopping power" was not an issue. Except, of course, for the psychological aspect of the situation. I think "stopping power," and "killing power," are different.

[Clark]

VegasGeorge - I posted a Blog on the 14th just days before the VT shootings. I was asking why we do not arm the qualified ROTC or retired police officers or military folks that are teaching in the schools.

The point about no resistance is not only in VT. I have asked kids in many areas what would they do if a shooter were in the school. You get a wide range of answers.

Some said "Lock the door and look for a weapon". Others said, "Curl up in a ball and hide". The second is what happened in VT.

In our dojo we are instructed to pay attention to our surroundings and watch everything going on around you. This needs to be conveyed to the kids. Even the use of thick text books to help deflect bullets.

Survival is an attitude and we need to teach our kids how to survive in this changing world.

[Snakebite]

Does the 9mm have the proper stoping power? I say a .22 with the right bullet delivered to the proper area in the human body will do the job.

[chainshaw]

The marines have gone away from the .9mm and handed everyone M4 Carbines. The .9 did not work in combat. We are testing some new rounds soon that claim to work. This may change the forumla that we have. Carry the biggest round that you can safely shoot while incontrol. Having new technology in a .9mm may change that rule. :)

The Marines are only allowed to carry FMJ ammo. Not exactly cutting edge.

I would put a well placed Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P against just about any semi-auto round for a defensive round.

[ColtM1911A1]

For the sake of discussion, we'll consider the shooter can handle all of the major caliber's recoil and can hit what he's shooting at; then, the caliber and ammunition becomes a valid talking point (I posted this on another website, but decided it fits in here as well)...

The bullet and it's design defines the caliber performance, not the other way around. Let's take a look at the 'state-of-the-art' bullet, the Cor-Bon all copper Barnes DPX:

1) All DPX calibers are designed to penetrate 10-15" through various barrier from plain geletin, demin (4 layers), plywood (2 layers), and steel plating (16 gauge - 2 layers). They all do that quite well...

2) The velocities and bullet weight are part of the equation to meet those penetration criteria (9mm = 115gr, 40 S&W = 140gr, 45ACP = 185gr, 10mm = 155gr). All use low flash powders, and since these are not jacketed bullets, they are lighter and longer for performance...

3) Velocity/Muzzle energies vary due to bullet weight and velocity (9mm = 1275/415, 40 S&W = 1200/448, 45ACP = 1075/475, 10mm = 1200/496). All this is designed around penetration and expansion.

4) Expansion through all media have been designed from 1.75-2.00 times diameter and they have proved out during testing; the lower expansion will be observed through hard barriers as this tends to bend petals in as they penetrate the hard surface and therefore minimize expansion -- this IS the reason a larger diameter bullet has advantages over the smaller calibers when expansion is limited due to barrier hardness -- not a factor in soft targets unless the HP plugs...

So, as you can gather, all the major calibers can get the job done -- you just have to decide which works best for you when you consider final expansion diameters and initial muzzle energy (my preferences are the 10mm and the 45ACP). And since the performance is done without maxing the loads, recoil in all calibers is mild...

Sure, you can increase velocities in all these rounds with jacketed bullets, but will that additional recoil be a plus if penetration is shallower or deeper?

Cor-Bon's new DPX is my choice, in all calibers, for the reasons I state above -- designed for both soft and hard barriers. Federal's newer HST jacketed bullet would be my second choice, and the newer bonded bullets would follow. Remember, with DPX, we lessen one concern with defensive pistol ammunition, the core separating from the jacket and then poor performance...

If you only anticipate soft barriers (most self-defense scenarios - man on man) than the other modern designs will usually perform well. Newer technology designs as: DPX, HST, Ranger T (LEO restircted), Mag-Tech all copper) are good designs when soft barrier defense is encountered. But I'll take DPX or HST if I might encounter both soft/hard conditions...

You be the judge about the caliber you want to carry. The DPX will give you the performance in all. Bullet design is where it all begins and ends. To me, that's the most important factor; you just have to decide what you shoot best, the platform you carry, the size of the expanded bullet you think will get the job done. To me, I like to start with the larger diameter bullets should a hard barrier or plugged HP hamper expansion...

[QNman]

According to Combat Handguns, the new +P Winchester Ranger 9mm performs ballistically similar to either a .40 or a .45

Personally, I have no experience with "stopping power" versus a drugged-out junkie. However, I have read many stories of many small calibers stopping crazies with a single shot and many other stories of crazies taking several COM shots with large calibers and continuing to fight.

Personally, I am of the school that one well-placed shot is better than several poorly placed ones and infinite misses. Shoot the largest caliber you're comfortable and accurate with. Size of the gun used will have an impact on what round this is (smaller guns are hard to handle with larger rounds).

That being said, personally I think the .40 (for autos) and the .357 (for revolvers) are about the closest to perfection for handguns. Enough velocity for hollowpoints to perform as designed, but not so much that it goes all the was through without expanding.

[ColtM1911A1]

As I've tried to state before, if you carry one of the major calibers and can hit where you point, the most important aspect to self-defense is bullet design and the type of barriers one might expect to encounter versus which caliber is better...

Of course, the larger the initial diameter the better off you will be if the bullet fails during barrier penetration. Most of the modern designs perform well against soft barriers (clothing, denim, etc.) but can be challenged with the wallboard and steel panels (home. autos, etc.). This is where bullet design becomes so-so important. Currently, IMO, the two best designs for both soft and hard barriers are Cor-Bon's DPX and Federal's HST Bonded...

Good Luck...

[junglebob]

The marines have gone away from the .9mm and handed everyone M4 Carbines. The .9 did not work in combat. We are testing some new rounds soon that claim to work. This may change the forumla that we have. Carry the biggest round that you can safely shoot while incontrol. Having new technology in a .9mm may change that rule. :)

The Marines are only allowed to carry FMJ ammo. Not exactly cutting edge.

I would put a well placed Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P against just about any semi-auto round for a defensive round.

I've got a 9mm handgun which is what I "fanny pack transport". I've heard that high quality JHP ammo narrows the difference there had been a several years ago in effectiveness of 9mm compared to larger caliber ammo. I haven't been able to find Speer Gold Dot locally, I did find Hornady #90252 115gr JHP/XTP is that comparable? Any other brands anyone can recommend?

I have a friend who is a conservation officer and he mentioned that he used to carry .45 caliber, but found he could shoot better with .40 and switched to that for his duty weapon.

[ColtM1911A1]

junglebob:

XTP is a deep penetrating round that serves better as a hunting round than one for self-defense...

Gold Dot is decent ammunition, but can now be regarded as older technology, similar to Federal's Hydra Shock...

For overall performance against both soft and hard barrier encounters, get either Cor-Bon's DPX or Federal's HST Tactical (bonded)...

For soft barrier encounters only (typical man on man CCW applications) I would again recommend DPX, standard HST, and Winchester's LE only Ranger T in either their 124gr 9mm +P or the 127gr 9mm +P+...

Good Luck...

[MattB1969]

All about placement folks..... I prefer the 45; just my opinion. :D

[Aaron C]

I agree with the majority here. A well placed 9mm round will get the job done. If it dont.... you could throw it and run like heck. :lol:

[BikerRN]

Here's my suggestion for anyone considering a certain caliber;

Shoot your chosen gun and load:

5 Rounds in
5 Seconds at
5 Yards inside
5 Inches from the holster

The gun/load you can do that with is the one you should carry in my opinion. I am fortunate that I have the ability to do this with multiple firearms, so I have a "selection" to choose from. :)

All handguns rounds are poor fightstoppers, some are just less poor than others. If I know I'm going to need a gun I will have a longarm, not a handgun thank you very much. :)

On paper all the "top shelf" defensive handgun ammo is very close as far as statistics for one shot stops and all that malarkey. Please don't think that you will only need one shot. Sometimes you do, most often you need more. I favor the .357 magnum 125 Grain JHP for off duty carry because of a belief and faith that I cannot explain. This is a psychological issue with me and any advantage, even if it's just a "trust" issue with your round is an advantage as far as I'm concerned. I also trust 9mm, 38 Special and 45 ACP. Yes, it is a good round, but all rounds have failed, even the old 45 ACP. No, "they do not all drop to 45 ball."

In short, let the test determine what you carry, and if you can pass the test with more than one gun/caliber then select which ever one you like best.

Biker

[Tanzer]

Biker RN,
That you from TFL???? Missed you over there. A few SD questions came up & we missed your input.
Anyhow, as Biker said, it's balance. I wouldn't mess with someone I knew was a great shot with a .22, and the scariest caliber is the one that's pointing at you. That being said, crackheads don't always share that opinion. A 9mm is a respectable gun. I sure as heck don't want to be in front of one, but over time, I've been able to comfortably shoot larger calibers. To parrot Biker once more, I sleep better with my .45 on the nightstand than I would with a mousegun like a Kel Tec 32. The same idea applies walking around Wal-mart, but I know the lead will go where I want it to.

[BikerRN]

Hi Tanzer. :)

Yup, it be little ol' me. I've been bouncing between forums and don't get over there as much as I used to. Good to see you again and I look forward to the discussions here.

Biker