No Firearms signs in Liquor stores

[snoball]

I am looking for examples of “No Firearms” signs that some states require liquor stores or bars to post. The following link shows the New Mexico sign that must be posted:
http://www.rld.state.nm.us/agd/PDFs/No%20Firearms.pdf.pdf

Unfortunately, New Mexico changed the law in 2007 so that CCW license holders may enter a package liquor store even if firearms are prohibited. However, they have not changed their required sign to show legal CCW license holders may enter. That means that many are still being cited if they do not display the old outdated sign. I am trying to get this changed, but need your help. What I am hoping some of you can provide is examples of signs from other states that show CCW holders can enter….
Note- It does not apply to bars and restaurants that dispense on premises, but you can now go into any grocery store, Wal-Mart or convenience store that sells liquor while carrying concealed.

Thanks for posting your information.




NO FIREARMS
ALLOWED ON PREMISES
NEW MEXICO LAW [Sec. 30-7-3]
CARRYING OF A FIREARM
(LOADED OR UNLOADED)
INTO THESE PREMISES IS PROHIBITED. ANY PERSON CARRYING A FIREARM INTO THESE PREMISES IS GUILTY OF A FOURTH DEGREE FELONY.

REGULATION & LICENSING DEPARTMENT
ALCOHOL & GAMING DIVISION

[pioneer461]

Unfortunately, New Mexico changed the law in 2007 so that CCW license holders may enter a package liquor store even if firearms are prohibited.

Am I reading this correctly? Do you think that legally carrying a firearm into a liquor store is a bad thing? Please say it ain't so.

The only way anyone would know you are carrying, regardless of the sign posted, is if you pull it and use it. If that happens and if you survive, then you can worry about the wording of the sign and any citations you may get after defending your life.

[duc_fan]

<snip>

The only way anyone would know you are carrying, regardless of the sign posted, is if you pull it and use it. If that happens and if you survive, then you can worry about the wording of the sign and any citations you may get after defending your life.

This is the approach I would take, especially if the updated NM law clearly states that you MAY carry with permit in such retail locations. My argument would be that the law on the sign has been superceded, and the sign is no longer valid.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, I don't study law, I'm just a 24-y.o. kid in an engineering field

[snoball]

No, it would be a good thing. Unfortunately, the old law makes it a 4th degree felony and our stupid Alcohol & Gaming has not made up new signs to show CCW is OK. What I am looking for in the United States is other state's signs that have been posted that shows CCW is OK. Anyone have this?
I realize that the sign has been superceded, but they are still citing businesses. We would like to get a correct sign for us CCW owners.
And yes, I still carry, but it is not a good thing to have a felony on your record.

[duc_fan]

No, it would be a good thing. Unfortunately, the old law makes it a 4th degree felony and our stupid Alcohol & Gaming has not made up new signs to show CCW is OK. What I am looking for in the United States is other state's signs that have been posted that shows CCW is OK. Anyone have this?
I realize that the sign has been superceded, but they are still citing businesses. We would like to get a correct sign for us CCW owners.
And yes, I still carry, but it is not a good thing to have a felony on your record.

Can you be convicted of a felony if you disregard the sign, but obey the actual law? You may get charged initially, but it seems to me they'd have to drop it after a quick look at the current statute as written. Or are you legally required to obey the sign itself?

[snoball]

While the legislature changed their law on CCW to permit concealed carry in package liquor stores, the Alcohol & Gaming Dept was supposed to then comply and change their regulations. They did not and they are still valid....a good lawyer would get you off. But I am looking for examples of good CCW signs that permit concealed carry so I can expedite their changing of their regulations.

[larryarnold]

Texas distinguishes between locations where CHLs can carry and where they can't with different signs. They are available in the following PDF document on pages 108 and 109. http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/publications/RetailersGuide2004.pdf

[duc_fan]

While the legislature changed their law on CCW to permit concealed carry in package liquor stores, the Alcohol & Gaming Dept was supposed to then comply and change their regulations. They did not and they are still valid....a good lawyer would get you off. But I am looking for examples of good CCW signs that permit concealed carry so I can expedite their changing of their regulations.

Ah-ha, that makes sense now. Wish I could help you find sign examples, but Oregon doesn't have differentiated signage (at least not that I've seen). Best of luck getting those changes brought about! http://www.ducatimonster.org/smf/Smileys/classic/thumbsup.gif

[snoball]

Larry- thanks very much....that is exactly what I was looking for. Texas has the two signs which permit concealed carry in package liquors...This is what I will ask NM Alcohol and Gaming to consider. Appreciate the research.

[larryarnold]

Glad I could help.

Our Alcoholic Beverage Commission supplies the signs, which are legal size (8.5X14"). The "No Unlicensed" signs are vertical, and the "No Licensed or Unlicensed" signs are landscape. That helps when the latter, which feature a red "51%" are hung in the sun, which can bleach out the red ink.

Our law only prohibits carry where the business gets 51% of their income from on-premises consumption, so we can carry in a liquor store, convenience store, grocery store, and most restaurants. Just not in a bar.

[jlrea]

The Texas law's 51% provision is also quite nice. You go to a sporting event like a baseball game that sells beer and in most states you cannot carry concealed, but it Texas, things are different. Wish more states would us the TX approach on this.

[duc_fan]

The Texas law's 51% provision is also quite nice. You go to a sporting event like a baseball game that sells beer and in most states you cannot carry concealed, but it Texas, things are different. Wish more states would us the TX approach on this.

I like Utah's approach. From what I've read, the only restrictions on "where" are the same as Federal (i.e. no airports or Federal bldgs), and as far as alcohol goes... you can carry in a bar, you just can't be legally intoxicated (which is the same BAC as it is for a car: 0.08).

I've gotta double-check Oregon's law.

[Bill of Rights]

I'll go you one better:

Indiana has no laws preventing carry in bars or in package stores at all.

Of course, we also have the moronic law that a church which also runs a school is prohibited for carry as well. Hopefully, this will change soon.

Cogito, ergo porto.

Blessings,
B

[hpj3]

Sorry, but I must question this - a sign quoting an invalid statute carries no force of law in any state... kinda hard to be charged with violating a law that doesn't exist - and it shouldn't take a "good lawyer"

IMHO

Howard

[snoball]

Howard- you are correct in that you would get off. The unique problem here in NM is the lazy Alcohol and Gaming dept. did not change their website, policies, regulations and enforcement when the Legislature changed the actual law which now permits CCW in package liquor retail stores. Since they have not changed, the package liquor stores refuse (rightfully so) to remove their signs because they will be cited by A&G. So, you may choose to ignore the signs and will eventually get off, I am trying to get these yahoos to change their regulations and inform the package liquor stores that it is OK to let concealed carry into their businesses. I have written the Governor and Lt. Governor and several legislators asking their assistance in getting this corrected. Wal-Mart & Sam's Club are aware the law changed but cannot remove the "No Firearms" signs yet because they have been cited in NM. That is why I am asking for examples of signs....we need to get this changed. Hopefully this will be resolved soon. We want our legal rights to be posted!

[larryarnold]

The unique problem here in NM is the lazy Alcohol and Gaming dept. did not change their website, policies, regulations and enforcement when the Legislature changed the actual law which now permits CCW in package liquor retail stores. Since they have not changed, the package liquor stores refuse (rightfully so) to remove their signs because they will be cited by A&G.

You might check the law again. Here in Texas when our Legislature wrote the concealed handgun law in 1995 they changed the Penal Code to allow CHL carry on most licensed premises. They failed, however, to amend the Alcoholic Beverage Code in the same way, creating a conflict. This put our ABC in the position where they were supposed to cite managers because it was illegal for managers to allow us to legally carry on their premises.

Our Legislature had to go back and fix that in 1997.

[Outlaw]

Speaking of this subject: Check out the "Gun Free Zone" skit on Rocky Mountain Gun Owners web site. Pretty much say it all

[snoball]

I have been working with the ATF Compliance Officer at the Wal-Mart HQ in Bentonville, AK and they have agreed to remove all NO FIREARMS signs by January 18, 2008, in NM. They agree the law will cover them and are not waiting for Alcohol and Gaming to change their signs. The Dept. of Safety has agreed to not cite them after I also sent them a letter about the law being passed. Congrats to Wal-Mart and Sam's Club in NM!