If you carry a gun, do you carry pepper spray?

[EBDPA]

This is my thought for the day. I was told during a training course many years ago that if you are going to carry a gun, you should also carry some form of less than lethal weapon.

A couple of ideas surrounding this statement. First, it demonstrates that we as CCW holders are not ' looking for a chance to kill ' . I carry a firearm to protect myself and my family from deadly threats. If confronted with a deadly threat, I want to be able to act to STOP the threat, and in many situations that may require that I present and use my firearm to defend myself. But if there is an opportunity, earlier in the scenario to escape or to end the threat in a non-lethal fashion, I would certianly want that opportunity as well. I choosed to carry OC spray with me all the time, particularly when I have a weapon strapped on.

Second, from a 'civil liability' point of view, I think it is smart to carry a less than lethal option as a demostration of my intent to only use the 'force necessary to stop the threat'. I am not a lawyer, but have been advised by many lawyers that their opinion is that they would rather defend a shooter who demostrated their intent to only use the force necessary by escalating their use of force commensurate with the threat by employing pepper spray before presenting and using their weapon. Now, I recognize that there are many scenarios that the firearm would be my first presentation, as well as scenarios where I could avoid the threat all together.

I personally believe and teach my students that any CCW holder should also obtain, train with and carry pepper spray or OC. What are your thoughts? If you carry Pepper Spray or OC, what brands or models do you prefer? I am working on an evaluation of different peppr sprays and OC products on the market. I personaly carry the LifeAct by Kimber.

http://www.life-act.com/guardianangel.php

Looking forward to all of your comments...

[VegasGeorge]

I have a couple of thoughts on this.

If you take the time and initiative to use pepper spray, you would probably use up whatever time and advantage you had for drawing your gun. If your assailant is close enough for pepper spray to be effective, he'd be on you before you could reach for the gun if the pepper spray didn't dissuade him.

By using pepper spray, you use up your first move advantage.

From what I've heard, pepper spray can enrage and further motivate an opponent.

You need both hands for your gun. That doesn't leave one for your pepper spray.

My primary concern is for my life and safety. I'm not much interested in the non-lethal aspects of sprays, tasers, rubber bullets, etc. I want the bad guy down and out right now. I don't feel as if I would have the time, let alone the inclination, to fiddle around with such toys.

[EBDPA]

To play devil's advocate.... :wink:

What if the situation did not pose a 'imminate danger of great bodily harm or death'? If you only bring one tool to the fight... what other options do you have.

I totally agree that if the scenario escalates quickily to a lethal confrontation, don't wait, present and stop the threat.

But in those situations where you can't retreat and you really don't think you can shoot... what do you do?

BTW, there are some very effective OC type devices. I agree the wally world pepper spray on a keychain is not a weapon... it is just a kids play toy. But 10% OC spray in a high volume container or something like the LifeAct by Kimber give you sufficient volume and power to disable all but the most drug-hyped assailant.

[45Fan]

I agree with VegasGeorge, I am not a LEO. I am not concerned with the bad guys well being. I always try to remember the 3-3-3 rule. If I am ever forced to use my handgun it will likely be in less than 3 seconds, take less than 3 shots, and be less than 3 feet away. I dont even want options.

The other concern I would have is a well meaning :? lawyer (who only cares about the children :? ) asking me why I CHOSE to use deadly force when I had pepper spray as well.

I like pepper spray, but my pockets at too full now.

JMHO

[pioneer461]

Don't bet your life on pepper spray. It doesn't always work. I know this from bitter personal experience.

[duc_fan]

I don't have a CCW yet, but will be pursuing one this year. Hadn't seriously thought about carrying pepper spray or OC spray.

My question/concern would be along the same lines as those already posed: when in a borderline situation (where you *might* have enough time to use the OC then switch to the gun), an additional option is going to add complexity to the decision-making process. I would also be concerned about instant-action scenarios (where the gun is the first thing drawn out of necessity), and some well-meaning lawyer trying to pin me down for using the gun first when I had a non-lethal option readily available.

Hmm, I will obviously need to consider this matter further. In the meantime, I am pursuing a CCW, and all I have for personal defense is my brain and a SIG.

[tattedupboy]

I never have, nor have I ever considered carrying OC spray (although at my job, where I work as a security officer, I'm required to carry it). However, if something were to happen that did not rise to the level of employing deadly force, but nevertheless, required me to act in some way, I would rely on my fists. However, I'm 6'6" and weigh 310 pounds, so it's unlikely that anyone, unless they are intoxicated, would ever bother me anyway. Nevertheless, if they do, I have my gun and my fists to protect myself.

[larryarnold]

If I have time for a non-deadly force alternative I believe presenting my handgun and saying, "Stop or I'll shoot" provides more deterrance than pepper spray. It's also a heck of a lot less messy.

I'd rather have another spare magazine.

[DAN]

Let me get this straight........So what I am hearing from the group is that no one carries a less than lethal weapon other than a fist.

So what happens when an unarmed person the same age, size and weight gets mad and says he or she is going to slap the snot out of you?

What I am hearing is that you warn them not to come closer and then you present your firearm and then what? If they keep coming? You shoot an unarmed person?

DAN

[45Fan]

I have thought about this.

First let me say, I don't get in to fights. I don't think I have been in a fist fight since I was in Jr. High...and that was a looonnnnggg time ago.

But, if in the unlikely event that this happened I would grip my handgun (not pull it because that could / would be brandishing) and tell the person that I am armed and will not get into an altercation. If after that they keep coming I would do what I had to do. I would do my best to keep the person away from me but, I would also understand that there is at least one gun in this fight.

In certain situations I would have no problem shooting an unarmed person at all. If someone were coming through my bedroom window in the middle of the night, I would not wait to see if they were armed. If someone is attacking me knowing I am armed I would have to assume that they are either armed or planning on taking my handgun to use against me. I would shoot.

I am really not too interested in how fair the fight is, I just want to be the one walking away from it.

JMHO

[Onree]

This is a tough decision; however it's one we've all had to make.

Here's what I do....

If I'm alone in public, I don't carry OC. I have my Keltec and that's it. I'll put some additional thought into that and discuss it with my wife some more, but that's the way it is for now.

If I'm out with my wife, she carries OC in her purse. We've discussed how and when it can be used and also discussed a plan of action including "keywords" that have specific meeting. We have a plan for several different scenarios that may arise and I feel we're well prepared. She has her CCW as well.

The one thing I can't do, and frankly don't understand, is why anyone would draw their weapon and not use it. If I were to draw my weapon, it’s getting discharged. Drawing it and not using it could end me up in jail. Wouldn't that suck - the thug becomes a witness against me in court!? There are laws about brandishing a weapon in public not to mention assault with a deadly weapon if someone else near by felt threatened. Florida has a 10/20/LIFE law (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/10-20-life/index.html) – that sotra thing could be an automatic 10 year prison term for me. No thanks!

I agree that warning someone that you're armed isn't a bad thing. However, I'd want to make sure the people in the next zip code could hear me do so. Having me standing and the bad guy dead with no other witnesses isn't something I like to think about. I'd do my best to ensure I made others around me a witness to the event and not have it be a question as to what alternatives I may have had in those three seconds.

Carrying OC has its oblivious advantages; however there are some serious disadvantages as well. I don't want to confuse myself or second guess myself when it comes to personal safety. Nor do I want to end up in jail because a jury doesn't feel deadly force was called for. It’s a very fine line and I'll use my best judgment to ensure I'm on the legal side of that line at all times.

[DAN]

Good comments my friends but still if someone is really mad at you, definetly unarmed but continues to try and push you around. Do you really announce you have a firearm, do you present your firearm, do you shoot him if he or she continues.

This is a std training senario that determines the need for a non lethal outcome. Is your life really threatened? Or do you just want to shoot the jerk?

If you yell I have a gun! the person can very easily say you threatened him with a gun. If you present your firearm He can start yelling gun he has a gun! and you get sited for brandishing, if you shoot it could be murder. Remember this is not "a fair fight" you have a gun and they don't.

This is all about the awsome responsibility of carrying a concealed firearm.
From my perspective we should all consider the non lethat option.
DAN

[45Fan]

Hey I respect everyones decision to carry whatever they like. For me the OC is not an option, neither is a taser gun. I am just not interested. I have several buddies who are LEO's that have to carry that on duty.

In this situation we are skiping though many things that would have taken place before this guy is coming at me. I would have diffused this 99% of the time before it gets here. So in my mind when we get to where the guy is running at me he is really bent on a piece of me in a situation where any resonable and sober person would have stopped.


So it is impossible for me to tell if he is armed or not, but I have told him that I am. He is not responsive to that. This is not a situation where I want to have pepper spray in my hand with this guy coming at me. I will have my handgun covered at the very least when he gets to me.

Just a few weeks ago a guy was getting his car stolen and tasered the guy and was promptly shot 5 times by the car jacker. I can't see where OC would have done any better.

http://www.news4jax.com/news4georgia/14538710/detail.html

As I say, to each his own. I understand your point of view and I respect your decision. In the very rare chance I am ever in this highly stressful situation, I don't want to die because I thought I had time to get the OC and still have a chance at my handgun.

I watched a video of a guy cover 21 feet with a knife before a cop could get his gun out. Not much time to change your mind...

[larryarnold]

So what happens when an unarmed person the same age, size and weight gets mad and says he or she is going to slap the snot out of you? What I am hearing is that you warn them not to come closer and then you present your firearm and then what? If they keep coming? You shoot an unarmed person?

If I'm facing someone who is so high, angry, or psychotic that they will look down at a loaded gun and keep coming, yes, I'll shoot. That situation is not going to end without violence, and I can justify it in court.

The one thing I can't do, and frankly don't understand, is why anyone would draw their weapon and not use it.

Because in the vast majority of self-defense situations, that's exactly what happens. If there is the opportunity I want to give the other person the option of reconsidering his aggression.

If I were to draw my weapon, it’s getting discharged.

I'd hate to be quoted in court as saying that. It's evidence that you didn't intend to give him a chance.

Drawing it and not using it could end me up in jail. Wouldn't that suck - the thug becomes a witness against me in court!? There are laws about brandishing a weapon in public not to mention assault with a deadly weapon if someone else near by felt threatened.

I don't know about Florida law, but under Texas law if use of force is justified threatening to use force or deadly force is also justified provided you are attempting to avoid a greater use of force. Thus "Stop or I'll shoot" in a situation where you are trying to convince the other person to do so, before you have to shoot, is a justified use of force.

Once you do get to that force level, it is of course essential that you call 911 and report the incident ASAP.

I'm not a lawyer, but I teach our Texas CHL class. YMMV.

[hpj3]

Guess I'll have to be the odd one out here... in addition to a 24/7 in .45, OC is always available as well as a collapsable baton. I advise my students as you do - get OC and training.

Yes, there are some instances of OC not being overly effective - but I believe they are the rare exception. With proper training, it does not have to become a hinderence in weapon ddeployment if necessary - no more so than a flashlight.

While there are circumstances demanding the immediate use of a weapon, there are also many where OC can be a definite asset. All depends on the scenario in play...

JMHO...

Howard

[Onree]

Because in the vast majority of self-defense situations, that's exactly what happens. If there is the opportunity I want to give the other person the option of reconsidering his aggression.

I'd hate to be quoted in court as saying that. It's evidence that you didn't intend to give him a chance.

I've never been in a gun-drawn, life or death situation before. So I'm only commenting on what I think might happen. My train of though is if it gets to the point of having to drawn my gun, we've passed the reconsidering stage and moved into the save my life stage.

I don't know about Florida law, but under Texas law if use of force is justified threatening to use force or deadly force is also justified provided you are attempting to avoid a greater use of force. Thus "Stop or I'll shoot" in a situation where you are trying to convince the other person to do so, before you have to shoot, is a justified use of force.

I'm unsure if Florida has a prevision like that or not. However, I will be looking it up! If I can be legally protected in such a way, that would add another legal tool to my bag.

The very last thing I want to do is shoot someone. Above and beyond having to live with that fact, the legal issues and media coverage is something I pray to God I never have to deal with first-hand!!

Once you do get to that force level, it is of course essential that you call 911 and report the incident ASAP.

I'd hope that goes without saying.

[larryarnold]

I've never been in a gun-drawn, life or death situation before. So I'm only commenting on what I think might happen. My train of thought is if it gets to the point of having to drawn my gun, we've passed the reconsidering stage and moved into the save my life stage.

There is a common perception that self-defense situations are always or usually a surprise. That isn't necessarily true.

I work at a sexual assault/domestic violence/victim of crime agency. Almost all of the attacks I hear about involve some warning, even if it's only the hair standing up on the back of the neck. (Can't count how many times I hear, "I knew something was wrong, but I just thaought I was being paranoid.") Many situations evolve out of an argument, which may take quite a while to escalate. Even in criminal attack there's often enough warning to respond, if you are prepared.

I also teach concealed carry in Texas, and dozens of my students have told of stories where they pulled their gun and the other person decided he shouldn't have brought fists (no matter how big they are) to a gunfight.

But, if in the unlikely event that this happened I would grip my handgun (not pull it because that could / would be brandishing) and tell the person that I am armed and will not get into an altercation.

Under Texas law telling someone you are carrying is a failure to conceal, and "gripping" your handgun just as much brandishing as pulling it. If the person is close enough to warn, he's close enough to keep me from drawing. I want my Glock already out and ready. If you have to tell someone yu're carrying, you are already in an altercation. (First force option, mental alertness. Second force option, verbal. Third force option, including showing your handgun, physical force.) I'd opt for the much simpler, "Stop or I'll shoot."

[VegasGeorge]

I like what I'm reading in this thread. I found larryarnold's post particularly interesting.

One thing I try to keep in mind is how dramatically the dynamics of a situation change the moment you draw your gun. We all tend to think of this from a narrow, "I've got the gun, so I'm in control" perspective. I want to point out that isn't exactly true.

Once you draw your gun, you now have to defend it. You cannot, under any circumstances, allow the bad guy to get your gun. By drawing your gun, you have severely limited your options. Either the bad guy goes away, or you shoot him. You really have no other choices. And, you have to keep in mind that a physically fit opponent can rush you, and get to you, from some distance before you can react and pull the trigger. So, you can't let the bad guy move in on you at all. In fact, I would already consider 15 feet as "to close," and would fire my weapon at once in a situation that looks bad.

So, what I'm saying is that in many cases, the decision to draw the gun IS the decision to use it. It simply has to be that way.

[Logan]

I am not wearing a duty belt, so I am not going to use pepper spray. Like someone else already said, my pockets are full enough as it is.

[45Fan]

But, if in the unlikely event that this happened I would grip my handgun (not pull it because that could / would be brandishing) and tell the person that I am armed and will not get into an altercation.

Under Texas law telling someone you are carrying is a failure to conceal, and "gripping" your handgun just as much brandishing as pulling it. If the person is close enough to warn, he's close enough to keep me from drawing. I want my Glock already out and ready. If you have to tell someone yu're carrying, you are already in an altercation. (First force option, mental alertness. Second force option, verbal. Third force option, including showing your handgun, physical force.) I'd opt for the much simpler, "Stop or I'll shoot."

This is really a good point. We are all (most of us anyway) under different State laws. I have a rare situation with an Atty. in my area. He is a CCW holder and a Partner in a very well respected SW MO Law Firm. His opinion on this matter was that brandishing would NOT be an issue in this case in the State of Missouri.

However, I do travel with my handgun. I check the carry laws of other States such as 30.06 but have never looked into this type of situation.
Good Stuff!

I have to say, this is a great thread! I really have enjoyed this one more than most! Thank you to everyone who is taking time to jump in...

[larryarnold]

Once you draw your gun, you now have to defend it. You cannot, under any circumstances, allow the bad guy to get your gun. By drawing your gun, you have severely limited your options. Either the bad guy goes away, or you shoot him. You really have no other choices.

Let's say the bad guy is coming at you and isn't going to stop for your verbal negotiation/warning. Or he's gearing himself up to attack, but isn't quite there yet. You draw and say, "Stop or I'll shoot." He stops advancing. You are in a standoff. You actually have several options.
You can maintain the standoff until law enforcement arrives. Since you are not a LEO you have no obligation to take the other person into custody. If he runs, you have no obligation to chase him. Call 911 and report the situation. If you have a reasonable option to retreat, you can do so.Note that I'm not saying this is a good situation, and there may indeed be times when you have no option to try a threat response.

But shooting someone, even in self-defense, is going to change your life. It is the last resort short of giving up.

[OldTXCop]

larryarnold wrote:
Under Texas law telling someone you are carrying is a failure to conceal, and "gripping" your handgun just as much brandishing as pulling it.

I'm curious where this came from. If I was the responding officer, I would not consider this "failure to conceal" or "brandishing", if it was done to stop a potential assault, but maybe that's just me. I don't think the thug is going to stick to complain....This does raise the importance of calling 911 and reporting the incident, because the first caller is usually considered the complainant.

As a CHL holder, we are held to a higher standard of conduct, than most. Many times that means going out of your way to de-escalate a situation. You may be perceived as a coward by some, but I can live with that, much easier than trying to justify murder, or assault with a deadly weapon.

Just because an attacker is unarmed, doesn't mean he can't cause me serious bodily harm, or even kill me. If a younger physically fit man were to attack me, he could easily cause me serious injury, or death, because of my medical "disability", so "deadly force" under TX statutes would be justified. Your state may be different.

These situations are fluid and the dynamics constantly changing...there are no definitive answers for most situations, but usually several choices. Let's hope and pray we never have to make that decision, but if we do we always make the right choice.

[larryarnold]

larryarnold wrote:
Under Texas law telling someone you are carrying is a failure to conceal, and "gripping" your handgun just as much brandishing as pulling it.
I'm curious where this came from. If I was the responding officer, I would not consider this "failure to conceal" or "brandishing", if it was done to stop a potential assault, but maybe that's just me.
Perhaps I could have been clearer. There is absolutely an exception to the necessity to conceal if you are in a self-defense situation where use of force is justified. My point was that there wouldn't be any legal difference between drawing your gun; and pulling your shirt up, exposing it, telling the other person you were armed, and gripping it. If one is justified, so is the other. There would be a tactical advantage to having your gun out instead of still holstered.
I don't think the thug is going to stick to complain....
There's a perception in self-defense that assumes the assailant will be a "thug." In my experience and that of my students this is not true. He could (from actual cases) also be an inebriated guest at a social event, the other party in a fenderbender, a person with an anger problem but no criminal record, someone who is borderline mentally unstable, someone who has recently been through a traumatic event, and so forth.

If you are involved in a fenderbender and accidentally or intentionally fail to conceal, the other party might very well complain.
This does raise the importance of calling 911 and reporting the incident, because the first caller is usually considered the complainant.
Agreed.
As a CHL holder, we are held to a higher standard of conduct, than most. Many times that means going out of your way to de-escalate a situation. You may be perceived as a coward by some, but I can live with that, much easier than trying to justify murder, or assault with a deadly weapon.
Agreed. An armed society is a polite society.
Just because an attacker is unarmed, doesn't mean he can't cause me serious bodily harm, or even kill me. If a younger physically fit man were to attack me, he could easily cause me serious injury, or death, because of my medical "disability", so "deadly force" under TX statutes would be justified. Your state may be different.
Again agree, and my state is Texas.
These situations are fluid and the dynamics constantly changing...there are no definitive answers for most situations, but usually several choices. Let's hope and pray we never have to make that decision, but if we do we always make the right choice.
Amen.

[VegasGeorge]

You draw and say, "Stop or I'll shoot." He stops advancing. You are in a standoff. You actually have several options.

This nicely illustrates the problem. Many of us have not considered the physics of the situation. If the bad guy has stopped, say, 10 feet from you, he can actually lunge at you and grab the gun before you can react and pull the trigger. That's a demonstrable fact. (Actually, the distance is more like 20 feet!) There should be no argument about that. If the bad guy lunges, he will either get the gun, or you will wind up in a hand to hand struggle with him over possession of the gun. That's something I am not willing to do. I'm 62 years old, and not particularly strong. I won't risk my life on the chance that I would win the struggle. If I have my gun out, and the bad guy is within what I consider to be the danger zone, I'm going to shoot him. That's why I say that often the decision to get the gun out IS the decision to shoot. Once the gun is in your hand, it's all up to the bad guy. Your choices are all used up.

[Bill of Rights]

(T)he decision to get the gun out IS the decision to shoot. Once the gun is in your hand, it's all up to the bad guy. Your choices are all used up.

This is probably the best, clearest, most concise explanation of this situation I have ever read. Well done, George. I'm putting this in my quote file.

Blessings,
B

[EBDPA]

I agree, this has become a great thread. There has been a lot of good discussion.

I find it interesting that most of the comments that discuss a confrontation paint a picture in my mind of two people standing face to face in a 'you or me' gun fight.. regardless of the distance we decide to shoot... There can be an entire thread surrounding the safe distance for the danger zone. The old 21 foot rule is being challenged regularly and I have many LEO friends that are saying that their departments are defending a greater 'danger distance' than that... all the way out to 30 feet or more depending upon circumstance.

The disparity of size argument is of concern to me personally. Living in the litigeous state of CA, I would be worried if I had to defend a disparity of size position. I am 6'4" and 280 lbs. Unless the guy is 'monster big' I would think that most juries would think that a guy my size should not have a problem unless a weapon was involved. Though the years and medical malidies are adding up.

I am counting on my 'awareness' to get me out of most situations or into a position of cover or even retreat. I will try and defuse a situation if I have any opportunity. If I can use a 'less than lethal' option to assist me in defusing the situation or aiding in the retreat of me and my family, I will use it. Now I know that everyone will chime in..." when a gun is needed, a gun is needed" and I totally agree.. If I am caught 'unaware' or if a scenario evolves to quickly to allow for other options, I promise you that my response will be with my primary weapon.

What about a scenario where the confrontation erupts right in front of me. Within my personal space, say in line at the grocery store or bank. If you are within conversational distance, there may not be an opportunity to safely or cleanly draw your primary weapon without some other kind of help. Of course, decisive action and movement are key. Remember, OC spray is not a two hand weapon. It can be effectively used with your support hand. Much like using an edged weapon to clear a path for you to draw your primary weapon, OC spray can buy you time in a fight to move to cover, get far enough away to draw your gun or sometimes, even cause the BG to retreat. If the BG is within 2 feet, my edged weapon is out in my support hand and while moving, will give me a clear path to present my weapon. If the bad guy is 5-10 feet away, and my edged weapon is not effective, then my OC spray can give me a good level of deterence while I increase the gap and present my primary weapon.

We all know that these situations, when they present themselves, happen extremely fast. I am just saying that I want as many 'tools in my toolbox' as I can reasonably have. I fully agree that if you add tools, you need to train with them. That means practicing on the range or in your back yard with your multiple options so that they are smooth and engrained into your memory set.

I just think that it is dangerous to think that every confrontation is going to be cut and dry, him or me... toe to toe... life rarely happens that way. God forbid that we have to be in that situation to begin with. But if I am, I want to know that I can protect myself and my family.

Keep the conversation open... this really helps us as a community to think through issues and expand our own personal mental arsenal. Remember, the fight always begins in the mind.

my 2 cents....