To clear, or not to clear... that is the question

[EBDPA]

OK, lets open a discussion about house clearing. We all know that Hollywood portrays house clearings on a regular basis... not always a good outcome for the good guy though.

In real life... as private citizens, often operating on our own, do we take on the task of clearing our house? When glass breaks in the night, do you grab your gun and go see what it is? Do you creep, room by room, clearing your house like they do in the movies?

I recognize that we all have different types of homes and different layouts. And granted, we all have different situations regarding other family members or kids in our homes. There is definitely a time when you need to go and get family/kids and get them to safety. But beyond that, do you pursue the bad guy further? Is it tactically sound judgement? Is it safe? Are we accomplishing anything by proceeding further than protecting our family from harm? Should anyone ever clear a home on their own?

My two cents worth of opinion would say NO. Defending yourself in your home does not include pursuing your opponent. What happens when you find the BG? Don't you have to shoot him? Are you going to arrest him? Do you want to put yourself and your family into that situation, where even if you are cleared legally, you could face years of civil liability? Or worse, get yourself dead?

This website is about the open discussion of ideas that will help us all, the CCW community, to improve in our decision making, our ability to defend and our ability to survive. So what are your thoughts?

[Bill of Rights]

Provided my dogs don't turn a BG into hamburger, I've got a shotgun ready to do so. As soon as he crosses the threshold of my bedroom. I can't think of too many reasons to go "looking for trouble"-I'm afraid I just might find it! :shock:

Blessings,
B

[OldTXCop]

Good topic....

Personally, I have to almost completely clear my house to get to the kids' rooms. I must pass the main points of entry to get to the side of the house where their rooms are, not the best situation, but that's life.

If it's just a "bump in the night, I will go investigate". If there were a definite crashing of windows or doors, I can secure a "point of ambush", that will allow me to cover most of the house, just outside my bedroom door, while Mrs. OTC calls 911. Hopefully, the kids will remember what to do in that situation... but, then again, they are kids... At this point the situation becomes fluid...

Remember... A burgular breaks into your house during the day, when most homes are empty, due to school and work, and steals your belongings.... Someone who breaks into your home at night time, is looking for more than property...and has realized he must use force to deal with those he finds...

I would not pursue an intruder, unless he's heading for my kids rooms. I would also not hesitate, to end a confrontation inside my home...

[ErnieH]

I like this one Craig!

Well first of all someone breaking in at night need a good ass kicking at the least...lol.

Like OTC, I would personally clear my residence. cutting the pie and all that good stuff. and then if I do find the intruder, first yell for the usual, "HANDS where I can see them," prone them out and all that fun stuff. Citezens arrest is a great thing, the boys in blue must honor all citizens arrest. especially a burglary suspect. That means you just gift wrapped the BG for them.

For the average everyday person, I would not suggest this tactic. I would say, secure yourself and your loveones into one safe location, call 911 and post up and wait for the Calvary to arrive. This would be the best.

Never, ever pursue outside of your dwelling, this would make you look like the aggressor in the laws eyes. Not a good thing! But by all means you have every right to protect yourself, your family and your home, "castle doc." Got to love it. can a person control the situation without having to shoot...for sure, by yelling at the person your voice shows force and control. Being confident in commands, let's the BG know your not messing around.

[VegasGeorge]

First thing is that any intruder that gets inside my house is going to be shot if I can get a bead on him. I'm not equipped to restrain and control prisoners, and I will not put myself or my wife in that dangerous position.

I have a relatively small house, and no kids. It's just my wife and me. I have a master suite, a small hall leading to a guest bath and a front bedroom, and a great room combination living room kitchen den. I can easily barricade myself in the master suite with my shotgun, putting my wife in the master bath with the cell phone. From that position, anyone who steps into the hallway is a goner. We have an outside door in the master suite, so depending on the situation, we might be able to retreat to a neighbor's house. I consider clearing my house to be a last resort. I would have to turn my back on at least one uncleared area to do that. A mistake could be fatal.

[EBDPA]

I totally agree with Vegas George... hunker down and wait. I have a similar situation, just me and the wife and we spend our night hours in our master suite. The hallway outside the master suite is protectable, but then I have too many blind angles to cover by myself safely.

ErnieH, you are just a run to the gunfire type of guy... and I appreciate your service to your country and the training you have had... but now that you are home, married and wanting to raise a family, I would strongly encourage you to rethink your tactics. We would like to keep you around for a while and I am sure that your wife agrees...

It is UNSAFE for any individual to clear a dwelling on their own.. I don't care how much training you have.. it just is not adviseable. You can not cover all angles even if you only have one BG, if there are more than one, you are SOL.

The only reason I can justify in my mind for leaving my safe room to pursue a BG is for the protection of other family members. If you know that they are hunkered down in a safe area, leave them there.. if they are kids and you aren't sure... then I can see leaving your space and going to them.. then you either hunker down there or bring them back to your safe room.. depends on the fluid situation you both describe.

I will tell you this, I have taken steps to make my 'safe room' secure.. and it might bear some consideration by those on this forum... I changed the hollow core door for a steel framed door with a deadbolt. This effectively cuts us off from the rest of the home. For OldTXCop, maybe a steel door for you and the kids rooms, or one of them at least.. develop two safe rooms... then an inexpensive inhouse intercom system could give you the security of knowing your kids are awake and aware and have locked themselves down... just a thought.

[EBDPA]

One other thought... if I find a BG in my home at night... two to the chest. If that doesn't stop the threat, one to the head. And I agree, the shotgun is a better option than the handgun.

No questions, no restraint, no arrest. If they are in my home at night, using forceable entry, they are there to do great bodily damage or kill me or my wife.

My 2 cents...

[Onree]

This is something that my wife and I have discussed at length. Our plans have recently changed as my mom has moved in with us. This mean we can no longer simply wait it out in our room as we call 911.

Prior to her moving in, we installed an additional lock on our bedroom to give us an extra second or two and also force the BG to make a big noise as he's entering the room. We still use the locks, but now if something goes crash in the right, I'm gonna have to head out and check it.

We told her, no banging on our bedroom door at night or shaking the knob as you may get "an answer". :shock:

[Bill of Rights]

Onree,

What about installing either a peephole (like on front doors) or if you want to go high-tech, a baby-monitor camera (with night-vision) that covers the door of your room and has a screen you can check from inside without opening the door?

Just a couple more pennies in the mix.

Blessings,
B

[duc_fan]

One other thought... if I find a BG in my home at night... two to the chest. If that doesn't stop the threat, one to the head. And I agree, the shotgun is a better option than the handgun.

No questions, no restraint, no arrest. If they are in my home at night, using forceable entry, they are there to do great bodily damage or kill me or my wife.

My 2 cents...

My feeling exactly.

If someone breaks in under the cover of night, I can assume only the worst intentions. There will be no barked commands, no vocalization. In my apartment by myself, I will shoot on sight. At my parents' home, I will have to positively identify my target first, so as not to harm a parent or sibling. In any other situation, where possible, the BG will get no warning.

[Onree]

What about installing either a peephole (like on front doors) or if you want to go high-tech, a baby-monitor camera (with night-vision) that covers the door of your room and has a screen you can check from inside without opening the door?


I was thinking about that. I may do a wireless camera in the hallway. I may also install a panic button at her bed side. Hate to invade her privacy too much, but also wanna make sure she's safe.

[Bill of Rights]

What about installing either a peephole (like on front doors) or if you want to go high-tech, a baby-monitor camera (with night-vision) that covers the door of your room and has a screen you can check from inside without opening the door?


I was thinking about that. I may do a wireless camera in the hallway. I may also install a panic button at her bed side. Hate to invade her privacy too much, but also wanna make sure she's safe.

I like the panic button idea. To clarify, though, in no way did I mean that the camera would focus on anything but the outside of your door or maybe the general nearby area, before you open your door. Security is important; privacy of those important to you is as well. Finding the balance is the hard part.

Blessings,
B

[DMorrison]

Let me say this, one BG, or two. You have the upper hand in your home. I say this because I have spent a lot of time kicking in doors. It's training, confidence, and quick wits that level the playing field for the aggressor. The bottom line is you know your house in the dark better then he does, you know where the coffee table is, which stair creaks, etc. Is there any reason to leave your safety of your bedroom, other then children (or moms). I suppose not. My house, is actually ideal to clear, i can clear each room, one at a time, starting with my sons, with out exposing myself significantly. And i'll catch the a-hole first.

I'll add a few thoughts, the first is STAY OUT OF DOORWAYS!! We call them the fatal funnel, you are silluaheted there, and if BG has a gun, your that much easier of a target.

The second is take a second to collect yourself. Consider that if you have older relatives living with you, that clash you heard might have been the toilet seat.

Identify your target, Identify your target, Identify your target. I understand that those of you who say, shoot first ask questions latter, are saying that with the thought that you have identified an unknown intruder. Maybe it's a child sneaking out of the house, or your daughters boyfriend sneaking in (feel free to shoot him LOL). Keep in mind that as much as we would like to shoot them, sometimes it's better not to.

Know your house, and consider it. If he hears you coming he is going to take one of to roads. He'll hit the road, or he will pick a nice dark corner to try and ambush you. Watch those corners, clear those corners, check your corners. Just because he's after your HD TV doesn't mean he's standing there holding it looking stupid.

If you do decide you have a target worthy of shooting, shoot him till he goes down. Non of this two in the chest one in the head. You shoot that SOB until he is on the ground not moving anymore. Shoot within your capabilities, shoot center mass, where you are sure you will hit. Shooting in the head is nice and all, but it's for snipers, if you miss and shoot your TV your night just got even worse. But don't limit yourself to two shots mentally, it might take more. It might take less, once he is down, and no longer a threat let him be, secure his weapon, and let him be. Consider that if you treat him medically, and he suffers in some way from your treatment he can sue you, and he'll probably win.

Two more thoughts, one a few conveniently placed decorative mirrors might be a cheaper alternative to video cameras. And while I like the "safe room" idea EBDPA, but i doubt any room is safe enought to keep me, or OldTxCop from getting to our babies. In that situation there is only place where they will be safe enough, and that's behind me.

[Bill of Rights]

If I have a home intruder and have to shoot him/her intentionally, the last thing on my mind is going to be providing medical treatment to the SOB!

If they do live, they get to answer to my wife for having the audacity to bleed on the carpet! :shock: (If they're smart, they'll get up and have me shoot them again!)

Blessings,
B

[DMorrison]

Old habits die hard i guess, i suppose. The whole treating the enemy things, is one of those laws of war things, i have had engrained in my head....

[ErnieH]

DM, you and I are going to get along great!

EBDP, there are two types of people in the world those that go to the shots fired and those that run. Both have their place in this world, and no one of them is netter then the other. I would rather take to fight to someone then wait for them to pick the time. After speaking to my wife about it, see expected nothing less from me, when I asked her what she was going to be doing, she said she was right behind me with the shot gun (that's my girl) Like my good friend DM said it is all about confidence, aggression, application of force and command presence. (Who is the bigger dog)

Rules of Engagement are very, very important here, some want to shoot at anything that moves in the night. Identify your target!!! remember you are responsible for every bullet that leaves your gun!! Know your target and what is behind it, doesn't that sound familiar? so after we Identify our target, next we give a Verbal warning, show you intent to use deadly force if needed. Show of force and use if force if needed. to stop the immediate threat. Engage the target with aimed shots till the target is no longer a threat.

Remember id the BG gives up or runs for the hill, it is over do not pursue and do not shoot. Your weapon is ment for protection of life, not of property/

[nodaywithout]

If I have a home intruder and have to shoot him/her intentionally, the last thing on my mind is going to be providing medical treatment to the SOB!

If they do live, they get to answer to my wife for having the audacity to bleed on the carpet! :shock: (If they're smart, they'll get up and have me shoot them again!)

Blessings,
B

so if the bg is still alive and you are a doctor do you have to treat him to the best of your abilities? just curious.

In my home there are three people who own guns each of us keep at least one pistol in our rooms. There are two ladies in the house, one of whom is not even a teenager. there is someone awake and at home 80 - 90 % of the time so if someone were to break in to the house my plan of action would be to get my roommate, and tell him to get ahold of his dad who is a LEO and have him join us in making sure A everyone is safe and B either exit the house, or clear the house (his call). if he is not home and it is me calling the shots i would choose to A. do what i can while still remaining safe, to make sure everyone else in the house is safe and outside of the house, exit the house myself while they call 911.

[Onree]

To clarify, though, in no way did I mean that the camera would focus on anything but the outside of your door or maybe the general nearby area, before you open your door. Security is important; privacy of those important to you is as well. Finding the balance is the hard part.

Bill, don't try and back peddle now! You sick freak - you were hoping some some Granny's Gone Wild, weren't ya!? :wink: :lol:

[ErnieH]

HA, Ha....sounds like you figured Bill out!!! Damn Bill the jig is up.......LOL

[Bill of Rights]

Hey, man, what do I care? I'M not the one who'd be looking at the camera feed! :lol:

Blessings,
B

[DMorrison]

I believe we will Ernie. However, i want to make myself clear, it is the safest course of action, to barricade yourself in your room, and wait for the fight to come to you. Some of us don't have that option, in particular OTC, and of course a TV isn't worth dieing over. Niether am I trying to glorify running into the fray. We are talking defense here, and as it's a cop's job to enter a dangerous situation for citizens, mine because Uncle Sam said so, it's all of ours for our families. I was just adding some very important tidbits, on the count of some people have to, or can't resist going after the BG. And it's one of the few subjects here, i can actually maybe educate just a little bit on. :) it's nice to sound smart. lol. But also remember, if you move you cast shadows, and make noise. I prefer my terrorists to move around their house when i went to ball them up. movement catches the eye, skinny little haji in a dark corner is a harder target. So if you feel you are under a very real threat to your life, and don't have a reason to leave your sanctuary, call 911, hit the prone, and cover down on that doorway.

[Onree]

Hey, man, what do I care? I'M not the one who'd be looking at the camera feed! :lol:
I knew it wouldn't be long before you were asking for a live webcam feed.

[molonlabetn]

My dogs will do it for me.

Rottweiler mix on the couch and a German Shepherd mix next to our bed... I feel sorry for the poor SOB that wakes them up.

If there is a problem which I must face, the problem won't be finding it... the problem will be trying to keep from hitting the dogs with a load of OO.

[Mudcat]

I'm very fortunate with the layout of my home as it is layed out like a "L" with the master bedroom at the top and the other rooms coming off from the side. In a situation I would not try to clear my home I just hunker down in front of my nightstand (a very dark little niche in our room) which would give me clear view directly down the hallway to the main part of the house while the wife called 911 from the safe side of our room (her closet. If, that is she could get in there). In our case because we have to go down the hallway even to get to our backdoor I would stay put and alert only using force if necessary before the cavalry arrived.

[Tanzer]

Tactically speaking, my duty is to protect my family, not to act as a cop. There are however, a few things to consider;
I have no desire to seek the BG out. I am not into tac lights either. I prefer to use the darkness to my advantage. It's my home afterall. My desired plan is to guard the hallway that leads to the bedrooms while my wife calls 911, (she happens to have her own weapon - another reason for me to stay put - I don't want her to mistake me), then get out if possible. This is especially so here in RI, where we have no Castle Doctrine.
I'm new to this forum, but an old-timer on others. This has been a hot topic, often getting into whether tac lights blind intruders etc. My two cents? I'm no good to my family walking around in the basement with a flashlight.
However, there's a problem; Home invasions are often carried out by more than one perp, so I need to worry if there's a buddy outside.
If I can get my family safely out, my job is to stay with them, and let the LEO's do their thing.
/\ The above is my generic response.
I have another variable; Two well-trained dogs. I'd have no need to seek anyone out. That's another story that would throw this thread off topic.

[Outlaw]

First of all, chances are you'll know your home a lot better than the BG. Get yourself in a good safe place with the best view and the clearest line of fire you can. He may be bumping into stuff, opening doors, etc. You should be able to hear him even if he tries to be quiet. You should be able to pick up on any unusual sounds.

Take a phone with you or have your wife call 911 ASAP. Instruct her to tell the PD what you are doing and that you are armed and where you are and if possible, where the BG is. It would be bad for you and look bad for the PD if they shoot you instead.

This is all of course if you have the time.
If not, just blow him away and call the cops. :roll:

[Tanzer]

Posted by outlaw;
If not, just blow him away and call the cops.
I don't want to sound like I'm preaching or anything, but remember; What you post online can come back to haunt you. It's important to be "ambassadors" to the idea of firearms ownership.
Please don't take offense, It's tempting to say things off-the-cuff, and we've all done it once or twice. Just remember that the antis are always out there lurking, and they have Sarah Brady on speed dial.

[tuna]

If I have a home intruder and have to shoot him/her intentionally, the last thing on my mind is going to be providing medical treatment to the SOB!

If they do live, they get to answer to my wife for having the audacity to bleed on the carpet! :shock: (If they're smart, they'll get up and have me shoot them again!)

I second what Tanzer says about watching what you type. Some overzealous DA or civil suit attorney may use what you post as "proof" of pre-meditation.

As far as getting medical help, I think it will go a long way with a jury (should it come to that) to hear the first thing on your 911 tape being "Send an ambulance to 123 Mockingbird Lane, I just shot a burglar". It makes it seem like you really care about human life, and didn't want to shoot him in the first place.

My best investment so far has been an alarm system. With two cats running around at night, when I get woken by "something", I have the peace of mind of knowing if there is no siren, then it was the cat (or someone coming in by cutting a hole in the roof, or second floor walls) and I can breathe easier.

[Bill of Rights]

I second what Tanzer says about watching what you type. Some overzealous DA or civil suit attorney may use what you post as "proof" of pre-meditation.

As far as getting medical help, I think it will go a long way with a jury (should it come to that) to hear the first thing on your 911 tape being "Send an ambulance to 123 Mockingbird Lane, I just shot a burglar". It makes it seem like you really care about human life, and didn't want to shoot him in the first place.

My best investment so far has been an alarm system. With two cats running around at night, when I get woken by "something", I have the peace of mind of knowing if there is no siren, then it was the cat (or someone coming in by cutting a hole in the roof, or second floor walls) and I can breathe easier.

I have a premeditated intent to protect my home, family, and self. If some intruder comes in my home uninvited in the middle of the night and breaks in to enter, no reasonable, prudent person would presume him or her to be there for coffee and a Danish. I will use only as much destructive force as I have to to ensure their, and my, safety. If that means I rack the shotgun, that's what I'll do, but by the same token, if an intruder leaves me no choice but to pull a trigger, I'll do that, too. The intruder made the choice to enter unlawfully and but me/us in fear of our safety.

The quoted comment (from me) refers to the fact that my medical knowledge is not insignificant. I'm no doctor, but the issue is this: If this person was enough of a threat to my family and/or to me that I was placed in the position of having to draw a weapon and shoot him or her, I don't then feel safe just because he or she has a new hole in his or her body to get close enough to render aid to the full extent of my ability. Call 911? Absolutely. Toss the perp a towel that he or she can use to stop bleeding and bandage him or herself? Sure. Provide aid personally, within his or her reach? Sorry, I don't feel like becoming a hostage to a wounded criminal.

As for the other, regarding him or her answering to my wife for bleeding on the carpet-I was only partly kidding. Even as angry as she'd be for someone coming in and threatening one or more of us, I don't honestly think anyone would stand up for that reason just so I would shoot them again... nor would I do so, unless they still posed a threat.

I hope this clarifies my prior post and my intentions.

(As an aside, I also recently saw that that 911 call should probably be "Send police and an ambulance to (address). Someone's been shot."
That is, do not identify to the 911 dispatcher who did the shooting. Just food for thought.)

Blessings,
B

[nodaywithout]

This just in.......

condition yellow alert - orange very alert and suspicious

Ok around 2320 tonight i get home from work and i walk around back to use "my" door to enter the home, with keys in hand and i could see that the LEO of the house was home and doing his computer thing, i approach my door and it pushes open, i walk in thinking "did i use my keys......? no i did not" the door was cracked open, and i can not get to my gun in my room without possibly putting myself in danger (so if something were to go down at this point i would be SOL), i leave walk very quietly down the hallway while checking to make sure nothing is out of the ordinary, head into the kitchen and i can see the LEO playing video games, asked who let the dogs out, turns out it was a false alarm, the youngest in the house (around 12) left the door wide open.

I know i am not the only one this has happened too but it is a scary thought.

I went from one level of awareness to another in milliseconds, no scenario here, just something that happened tonight.

[Tanzer]

nodaywithout,
If you had your weapon on you, what would have changed? I'm just curious because that's the gist of the OP.
I'm a little confused. Was he doing his "computer thing" as you first stated, or playing video games? Was he playing on the computer? (I don't play video games). Is he an actual LEO?
I ask because these are relevant to how good your vantage point was, and whether he was trained and armed. Good things to know. If you could see him and he wasn't upset, with the dogs out back and not acting weird, didn't it seem pretty normal? I must have missed something.

[nodaywithout]

you did miss something simply because i am horrible with details.

My gun would not have changed anything unless there was a need to shoot an intruder, my statement about being SOL if something were to happen, was me saying i could do nothing about it except for yell loudly, "intruder in the house, get out of my house!!!" Which would hopefully be enough to alert every one in the home and make the BG at no point do i want to shoot anyone (i might make an exception if i had the chance with bin ladin though haha)

The LEO i speak of is an actual police officer. (who was playing a game on the computer) as far as i know he is armed quite a bit, and the dogs were nowhere in sight, it was a scary thought thinking is there a BG in my house is the point that coming to.

[Tanzer]

Having teens or "tweens" in the house complicates matters. They are likely to get up at night for many reasons; A snack, bathroom, sneaking onto the computer to check messages etc.
Stay safe.